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Thread: Jeep Jamboree replacing CB with GMRS for 2021

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    Default Re: Jeep Jamboree replacing CB with GMRS for 2021



    open_circuit previously posted:
    "I was going to look up the transmit power of these based on the model number, but it looks like the XRS 9370 might be a radar detector and not a radio. Is that the correct manual and part number for these?"

    My bad I guess I don’t have a manual. They are model PR 955VP. .5 and 2 watt.

    https://www.cnet.com/products/cobra-...adio-frs-gmrs/

    Manual is here
    https://www.fixya.com/support/p13073...o/manual-44129
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    Default Re: Jeep Jamboree replacing CB with GMRS for 2021



    open_circuit previously posted:
    "Those Baofeng radios are great if you take time to set them up. I didn't mention them because you can't buy one and immediately use it out of the box safely. They require programming to correct frequencies before use. If you take a new one and try to use it, it could be previously programmed to access channels in use by emergency services, for instance, and you could easily get yourself noticed in a bad way. As long as you program them properly, they can be responsibly used."

    I am set up to program these if anyone wants me to do that for them. It would take all of about 15-20 mins.
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    Default Re: Jeep Jamboree replacing CB with GMRS for 2021



    Excited to see this thread. I picked up a gmrs unit a couple of months ago and haven't gotten around to installing it yet but now that I see others have one I'll try to get to it before the New Years Day run.

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    Default Re: Jeep Jamboree replacing CB with GMRS for 2021



    My little <2W radios worked well in a test in the neighborhood and for the kids to use while hiking around when we stopped on the trail run last weekend. We got about 0.5 mile of range on low power (0.5W) FRS channels with houses and trees everywhere here. I'd expect better range on the trail with the higher power channels if terrain isn't too problematic.

    We did not use the radios for the trail run since everyone except Steve-O had a CB and I didn't think to hand Steve-O a radio to test out on the trail. My bad. If everyone is on one type of radio that works well enough, I just want to use one (FRS, CB, etc). There's too much going on during a trail run to try to operate several radios while driving a trail rig with a manual transmission!

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    Default Re: Jeep Jamboree replacing CB with GMRS for 2021



    I just bought a set of Motorola T600s as well, looking forward to trying them out
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    Default Re: Jeep Jamboree replacing CB with GMRS for 2021



    Mine arrived today. Free shipping from B&H photo ended up being FedEx AIR from the east coast (NJ). NJ to TN, TN to CO. Arrived a day earlier than anticipated.

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    Default Re: Jeep Jamboree replacing CB with GMRS for 2021



    I haven't figured out where I am going to try to put this radio while I'm driving. I have a convenient mount for my CB mic/speaker.

    Edit: I'm going to make the bracket this helpful poster made and provided directions for. Looks perfect for my use.

    https://wranglertjforum.com/threads/...-for-tj.19226/

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    Default Re: Jeep Jamboree replacing CB with GMRS for 2021



    So, I've been reading the box and owner's "sheet" (ha - "manual", um, not!). I see no reference to GMRS and license required. I see one reference to FRS not requiring a license.

    I went poking about and found this curious web site:
    https://www.buytwowayradios.com/blog...ense_free.html

    Essentially, there is a short list of GMRS radios which require a license (this Motorola T600 is not on the list) and a large decider is greater than 2 watts of power and/or is REPEATER CAPABLE.

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    Default Re: Jeep Jamboree replacing CB with GMRS for 2021



    Jim previously posted:
    "So, I've been reading the box and owner's "sheet" (ha - "manual", um, not!). I see no reference to GMRS and license required. I see one reference to FRS not requiring a license.

    I went poking about and found this curious web site:
    https://www.buytwowayradios.com/blog...ense_free.html

    Essentially, there is a short list of GMRS radios which require a license (this Motorola T600 is not on the list) and a large decider is greater than 2 watts of power and/or is REPEATER CAPABLE."

    It appears the licensing section of the manual was updated in the version I received with my radios also, compared with the version I linked above from Motorola's product page for these radios. The manual linked on the Moto site (https://www.motorolasolutions.com/co...erGuide_EN.pdf) is copyright 2016 (marked as version MN002226A01-AA) and has a section on GMRS licensing. The manual that came with my radio is copyright 2016 and 2019 (marked as version MN002226A01-AF) and only discusses that FRS radios do not require an additional license. It is curious that Motorola still has an older manual linked on their website

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    Default Re: Jeep Jamboree replacing CB with GMRS for 2021



    Jim,

    It's funny that you cite www.buytwowayradios.com as I was going to suggest that as a resource. All of the rules around FRS and GMRS seem to be way more confusing than they should be, but the folks at that little company seem to make a pretty good effort to try and unravel that and discuss it in their blog and in various other places around the internet.

    My take is that the FCC screwed up years ago by letting manufacturers get type certification for combined FRS and GMRS radios and the 2017 rule changes were an attempt to deal with all of the unlicensed GMRS use as a result of that and clarify the rules moving forward. I think that effort also made some other little facets of these issues confusing as well, like when a manufacturer neglects to update their documentation on their website to reflect those changes.

    The way the rules are now it appears that a radio can be certified as a GMRS or an FRS radio, not both, but they share so many of the same frequencies that FRS and GMRS users can talk to each other more or less seamlessly. FRS could maybe be viewed as a stepping stone to GMRS from an offroad users perspective. Then with an upgrade to GMRS you get more power, mobile units detachable antennas that can be placed outside of the metal passenger compartment of some vehicles, and a handful of extra channels that are used as repeater inputs.

    Based on some of my tinkering with amateur handhelds, I think FRS radios used in Jeeps will work pretty well for trail communications if the speaker is adequately loud enough. I think vehicles with metal roofs will run into issues with reduced reception but may ultimately be usable on the trail. These things are usually sold in pairs so maybe some folks here on the fence can borrow one on a trail run to see if it works for them.

    Another thing that I think is pretty cool about www.buytwowayradios.com is that they seem to make an effort to listen to their customers and then work with Chinese radio manufacturers to manufacturer products that meet their needs. They have been working with Wouxun (pronounced like Ocean) to make FRS, GMRS, and MURS radios with power outputs much closer to the legal limit, and other customer requested features and then ensure those models actually go though legit FCC certification for those services. (unlike rugged radios, although they seem to be making an effort to get in compliance now) I think with any of these chinese radios you have a much greater risk of getting a lemon, but there is some value in the feature set that offsets that risk for some consumers. You dont see that feedback loop with a Midland, Cobra, or Uniden. The way it works out because Wouxun tends to use a common chassis is one could have one of several Amateur Radio handhelds, and a GMRS handheld (or any other service) that use the same batteries, chargers, and accessories which might be cool.

    That last bit sounds like a plug. Sorry about that. I just think its so interesting that the feedback loop between customer, supplier, and manufacturer is so much tighter in this case.

    Lastly, back in August of this year the FCC proposed some rule changes regarding their entire fee system for wired and wireless licencing. Two little pieces of that proposed change: They want to start charging fees for Amateur radio licencees (new licences, upgrades, vanity call signs) of $50. Previously one would only pay the VEs to administer the test... I paid $15, but pay the FCC nothing. They also propose reducing the GMRS licence fee from $70 to $50. In a nutshell they seemed to put a lot of effort into looking at their cost structures for business licencing and broadcast licencing, but then seemed to just drop a standard $50 on any personal radio licence related fee. So bad news for hams, good news for people looking at GMRS. I think its in the comment phase.. I'm not sure when this may or may not be slated for implementation.

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    Default Re: Jeep Jamboree replacing CB with GMRS for 2021



    To follow up on this thread, we all used gmrs/frs at Bunce a couple of weeks ago and for me it was hands down better than cb. One of the handhelds struggled a bit, but even the handhelds did great. I had the tiniest external antenna I've ever seen, not even a foot long, certainly not bouncing around on the back of my rig like my cb antenna and even so I could hear everyone clearly all day.

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    Default Re: Jeep Jamboree replacing CB with GMRS for 2021



    Looks like the new FCC radio licence fee schedule was approved.

    https://www.buytwowayradios.com/blog...ense-fees.html
    https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachme...C-20-184A1.pdf

    A 10 year GMRS licence dropped from $70 to $35. They initially proposed $50, but it looks like the feedback they received made them decide to lower it. That covers one's immediate family, which according to 47 CFR part 95 is:

    "Immediate family members are the licensee's spouse, children, grandchildren, stepchildren, parents, grandparents, stepparents, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, nieces, nephews, and in-laws."

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/47/95.1705

    Amateur radio licence fees went from $0 to $35. That's a bit of a bummer.

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    Default Re: Jeep Jamboree replacing CB with GMRS for 2021



    Trevor? previously posted:
    "Looks like the new FCC radio licence fee schedule was approved.

    https://www.buytwowayradios.com/blog...ense-fees.html
    https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachme...C-20-184A1.pdf

    A 10 year GMRS licence dropped from $70 to $35. They initially proposed $50, but it looks like the feedback they received made them decide to lower it. That covers one's immediate family, which according to 47 CFR part 95 is:

    "Immediate family members are the licensee's spouse, children, grandchildren, stepchildren, parents, grandparents, stepparents, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, nieces, nephews, and in-laws."

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/47/95.1705

    Amateur radio licence fees went from $0 to $35. That's a bit of a bummer."

    Just went on the fcc licensing page to get a gmrs license and its still at $70. I seems the $35.00 fee will not go into effect until mid March.

    I was playing around with a Retevis RT86 UHF handi talki that I had programed for ham frequencies. Programed it for for FRS. Its has two power levels 2w and 10w. It only has 16 channels and since it does not do .5 watt I have the first 7 frequencies programmed and skipped the .5 watt channels, then programmed frs channels 15-22 at 2 watts. Was thinking of doing them at 10watts but need the gmrs license.

    That left one channel free so its programmed for he ham uhf national calling frequency.

    Its a nice little radio considering I got it from Retevis for free. Won a contest.
         
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    Default Re: Jeep Jamboree replacing CB with GMRS for 2021



    Hopefully it's March.... the wheels of bureaucracy turn slowly I guess. I had my hopes up last weekend when the FCC licencing site went down for maintenance, but no dice.

    10 watts in a handheld... that's a lot of juice. Is that a part 90 radio? It looks like a solid unit.

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    Default Re: Jeep Jamboree replacing CB with GMRS for 2021



    Its designed for ham or business. Its not legal for frs, but...
    The manual says its fcc part 15.

    https://www.retevis.com/RT86-Hidden-...ce-call#A9207A

    Not legal for frs but neither are the baofengs. I think its mainly due to the power levels and detachable antenna.
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    Default Re: Jeep Jamboree replacing CB with GMRS for 2021



    I just got these and have tried them car to car, campsite to campsite and out hiking and they do great all around. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07FLRQLF4...ing=UTF8&psc=1




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    Default Re: Jeep Jamboree replacing CB with GMRS for 2021



    I just posted to another thread on the forum about this
    Trent I'm pretty sure I sent you a text a while ago about the Jamboree switching to GMRS!
    Anyway the only thing I have to add to the thread is that I don't think GMRS radios will outperform a well-tuned and grounded CB setup, unless they are over 4W power (the power of most modern CB radios) and have an external antenna. Maybe someone can correct me on that if I have that wrong. I think for Wranglers/CJs handhelds are alright since the tops are fiberglass or nonexistant but I am going to go for a similar setup to my current CB install. The good news is it seems that GMRS external antennas are much smaller so I can just put a little whip antenna somewhere and not worry about it at highway speeds. However just like CB setups though its nice that a handheld will at least get the job done if not exceedingly well, and one can move up to a better comm setup when one feels like they want something better instead of feeling like they need to jump right in to a solid CB setup.

    I'll post a build thread when I get around to installing a gmrs setup

    Edit: I think I can correct my own claim above, the range of the handheld GMRS are probably no better until using an external antenna and 4W or higher, but apparently since they are FM and not AM like CB radios, the communications are much clearer and less prone to interference.

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    Default Re: Jeep Jamboree replacing CB with GMRS for 2021



    Hopefully I don't come across too weird here. Mostly I agree with you, but for some reason I just really like to talk about radios and I can’t help myself. There is so much to learn and tinker with. I am in the middle of a UHF radio install in my TJ at the moment and I have been experimenting with different antennas and mounting locations using a small vector network analyzer. Feel free to tune me out or refute any of my points. Sorry in advance for the long post.

    It is definitely true that 4W out of a CB with a well tuned antenna setup can reach very, very far, but I would argue that no CB antenna installation into a Jeep or similarly sized vehicle is anywhere close to an optimal installation. There are a ton of compromises. I would argue it is far easier to achieve a GMRS/UHF installation on a 4x4 with far fewer compromises, and because of that one can much more easily turn their transmitter power into radio waves. I also think the best thing about the ubiquitous bubble-pack radio is not it’s range , but that it makes GMRS more appealing for taking new 4x4 enthusiasts out on the trail and it could be handy when spotting people on the trail.

    There are many mobile antenna designs, but the quarter wave whip is a simple and generally common design. You can get some additional gain out of a ⅝ wave or an end-fed half wave but at CB frequencies these designs are prohibitively long. Here it helps to think in terms of wavelength rather than frequency. CB frequencies have a full wavelength of roughly 11 meters (36 feet). Just a ¼ wave whip for CB is already ~102 inches, and that’s too big and dangerous whipping around on the trail that hardly anyone uses them anymore. In the 4x4 CB world the loaded fiberglass antenna is the gold standard.

    The trick with these fiberglass antennas to make them compact is to add a loading coil. The purpose of the coil is to electrically lengthen the antenna so it is resonant without physically lengthening it so much. The tradeoff is that the coil section does not radiate much if at all, and the overall efficiency (radio power converted to electromagnetic radiation) is reduced.

    Next you have your issues with RF ground in a 4x4. Another rule of thumb for an efficient ground for a ¼ wave vertical whip is to put your antenna in the middle of a flat conductive surface with a radius of about a ¼ wavelength. For CB that would be a metal surface about 18 feet across. Jeeps have very little horizontal metal. We tend to mount our antennas on the back corners of our jeeps with our roll bars close by which tend to add stray capacitance and further compromise our installations. We also don’t usually bond the few body panels we have and the exhaust which can cause other issues with interference and tuning.

    Lastly, and this isn't really an antenna issue, but CB radio is legally defined to use AM modulation. (I know you can also do SSB, but very few people use that mobile). The main problem with this in a 4x4 or any vehicle is that engines produce a lot of electrical noise that is easily coupled to the signal in an AM modulated radio.

    Now these figures are kinda nuts. Clearly one can get away with violating these ideal principles because many of us have perfectly functional CB installations in our 4x4s that work perfectly for communicating on the trail and on the highway. The point in spelling all of this out is to highlight all of the compromises that we have made to get our systems to work. All of our 4W CBs are not putting out 4W of RF energy. For home CB installs you can put a much larger, efficient antenna much higher in the air and get much more of your transmitter power out into the air which is likely the reason CB is limited to 4 watts AM. With a CB base station you can talk across states and farther when the ionosphere is cooperating.

    Now take a UHF radio like GMRS or 70cm HAM. A wavelength here is only 25 to 28 inches, which means a ¼ wave whip is only 6-7 inches tall. A mag mount ¼ wave on the hood of a jeep would radiate much more efficiently. At these lengths you can use ⅝ wave antennas or collinear arrays without physically absurd antenna sizes. End fed half-wave antennas are cool because they don’t really need much of an RF ground so you could put one on a fiberglass top or up on a tire carrier and still get it to tune up and radiate pretty efficiently… or just the metal roof of a car would be plenty of surface area for a good RF ground. You also have the benefits of FM modulation which doesn't have the same issues with ignition system noise and generally produces cleaner, clearer audio.

    Now there are other issues at these higher frequencies. It’s much easier to lose power in cables and poor connections for instance, but I’m already pretty long winded here.

    The biggest problem with GMRS for 4x4 use is adoption. Technically I do think it is superior but most of us already have CBs. CBs are cheap, common and often work perfectly fine. Only recently with the coming drop in the licensing fee for GMRS and some traction with Midland and other suppliers for GMRS mobile radios has this started to look more appealing to a larger group of potential users. You are correct that a cheap bubble-pack handheld, especially inside a metal-roof vehicle, is not going to out-perform a good CB installation in a vehicle. I do think it will be on-par with your average CB installation on a small vehicle like a Jeep especially with some of the really short fiberglass antennas some folks use. I see their real value as an inexpensive temporary solution to the adoption problem. It’s also a lower bar to entry for a new off-roader for which this group seems to be particularly well suited. If a couple of people such as yourself start using GMRS, we can toss a cheap handheld to a first-timer and maybe they’ll have a little more fun on the trail.

    So I’m personally excited that there are a few other folks interested in trying out GMRS like you. I plan to get a licence when the new pricing is adopted by the FCC and I will enjoy any opportunity to “play radio” while also playing with my Jeep with you folks. I will also be keeping my CB installed to communicate with anyone who wants to keep using their CB. I actually just took my midland 1001z out of the jeep and installed my cobra 75wxst that was previously in my van. The midland is a better radio but the cobra is smaller and just better suited to mounting in the jeep. The midland will go in the van.

    I realize I just wrote a really long post here. Maybe someone will find this helpful. Maybe I mischaracterized some things here and if so I would love to hear it.


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    Default Re: Jeep Jamboree replacing CB with GMRS for 2021



    Trevor? previously posted:
    "
    I realize I just wrote a really long post here. Maybe someone will find this helpful. Maybe I mischaracterized some things here and if so I would love to hear it.

    "


    Thanks for the information! It did a great job of tying together my approximate knowledge and experience with both types and correcting some of the misinterpretations I had.

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    Default Re: Jeep Jamboree replacing CB with GMRS for 2021



    A 40 watt uhf/VHF ham radio does all that.

    ___________
    Tom
    -.- . ----- .-- - -.-.

  28. The Following Member Says Thanks to Tom For This Post:

    Trevor? (March 16th, 2021)

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