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Thread: Jeep Jamboree replacing CB with GMRS for 2021

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    Default Re: Jeep Jamboree replacing CB with GMRS for 2021



    Tom previously posted:
    "A 40 watt uhf/VHF ham radio does all that.

    "

    I think the barrier of entry and ease of use are in GMRS' favor though. More likely for club members to show up to a trail ready to communicate on GMRS than with ham licenses and mobile stations.

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    Tom (March 16th, 2021)

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    Default Re: Jeep Jamboree replacing CB with GMRS for 2021



    Yeah, but if they do t want to study for a test just to get a license for a radio they will use a few times a year, do you even want to bother trying to talk to them?

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    Default Re: Jeep Jamboree replacing CB with GMRS for 2021



    It's creeping along at the speed of bureaucracy:

    "The Schedule of Application Fees of the Commission's Rules was published in the Federal Register March 19, 2021. According to the notice, the fees officially take effect once it is sent to Congress and the FCC's systems have been updated. The FCC will then publish a notice of the actual effective date."

    https://www.buytwowayradios.com/blog...pril-2021.html
    https://www.federalregister.gov/docu...missions-rules

    I got tired of waiting and got a licence 2 weeks ago.
    Turns out there are a handful of GMRS repeaters in the Denver area. It gets much more sparse in the rest of the state, less so than ham. Most use split codes (one CTCSS or DCS code for repeater input, and a separate one for output), although there is one around Chatfield State Park that only uses a single code. I think only the top-tier Midland mobile radio supports split codes, and I do not think their handhelds support it. It's not really a primary 4x4-usage kind of feature, but something to keep in mind.

    https://mygmrs.com/map/#/

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    Default Re: Jeep Jamboree replacing CB with GMRS for 2021



    I know I'm late to the party here, but wanted to geek out with y'all over radios.

    Anyways, my concern with FRS/GMRS is, for one, a lot of FRS radios come pre-programmed to listen for a CTCSS or DCS tone. This happened to me recently - I bought a pair of cheap FRS radios only to discover they weren't picking up audio from other FRS radios, even though there was no mention of a tone on the listing for them, their packaging, or their manual. I was able to load them in CHIRP (programming software) and saw that they indeed had tones set and I was able to re-program them, but I could see this being an issue for folks thinking they can buy one for a trail run, then they get out on the trail and can't hear anyone.

    Then there's the issue that FRS uses narrowband FM, and GMRS uses wideband FM. I believe this would mean that someone using FRS to listen to someone transmitting from GMRS would have their radio over-modulated. In my testing, this resulted in the reception being slightly quieter. I'm not sure if that's actually an issue as long as everyone using GMRS could set their transceiver to use NFM - is that a common option?

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    Default Re: Jeep Jamboree replacing CB with GMRS for 2021



    I haven't seen either of these being issues in about 10 trail runs using a combination of various FRM and GMRS radios. I do hear a series of beeps occasionally, maybe this is the tones you refer too?

    My handheld was a bit quiet sometimes, but then I realized the mic sucks and I just have to talk directly into it.

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    Default Re: Jeep Jamboree replacing CB with GMRS for 2021



    speedkills previously posted:
    "I do hear a series of beeps occasionally, maybe this is the tones you refer too?"

    Nah, those would be either roger bleeps (when someone stops pressing the PTT button), a call button, or some other feature. The tones I'm referring to are inaudible to the human ear, but radios programmed with them won't receive audio from the transmitter unless they're also transmitting the inaudible tone. Some radios refer to them as "privacy codes". Presumably, they're so that you can chat with someone else using the same type of radio without hearing anyone else using the same frequency - not exactly private and annoys everyone else on that same frequency whom you can't even hear.

    It's good to know that that must not be a common issue based on your experience though, I guess I just got unlucky with the ones I bought. Do you happen to use a Midland GMRS radio? I think I've read elsewhere online that they use narrowband FM at least by default anyway, so that'd solve any FM/NFM incompatibility.

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    Default Re: Jeep Jamboree replacing CB with GMRS for 2021



    I also think that bandwidth will not likely be an issue in practice. A few months ago I tried to do some research on the differences between GMRS and FRS bandwidths, because that’s the kind of thing normal people do, right? I may not understand it fully, but this is what I believe to be the case.

    Clearly the specs are different between the two services, GMRS at +-20kHz and FRS at 12.5kHz. These are limits, actual transmissions vary in bandwidth depending on the information transmitted. In practice radio manufactures appear to design to a smaller interval, 16kHz for GMRS and 10-11kHz for FRS. What's interesting, like you point out, is that according to the FCC test reports for the Midland Micromoble line, they appear to be running the FRS bandwidth on their GMRS radios. (https://fccid.io/MMAMXT275/Test-Repo...Report-3578834 pages 13 and 14). I'm not sure if that was done to improve interoperability between FRS and GMRS radios (which midland sells both) or because the commercial/business radio market has been shifting to narrower bandwidth in general and it allows Midland to use a common design. The Wouxn K805G handheld which appears to target GMRS power users (a consumer that would value a higher bandwidth) runs 10kHz, although being a handheld and having the ability to use channels 8-14 (unlike the Micromobile line) using the narrow bandwidth on all channels is simpler than having to switch back and forth based on channel.

    Now these are just maximum bandwidth specifications. Your actual bandwidth for any given transmission will vary depending on how loudly you speak, how close your mouth is to the microphone, and your microphone gain if you can change it. If someone was transmitting with a higher bandwidth than your receiver is designed for on FM, their signal would sound much louder. If they were using a lower bandwidth than you, they would sound quieter.

    I've been listening to several of the Denver area GMRS repeaters with both a K805G handheld, an ICOM IC-2730 Ham transceiver in my Jeep (10kHz bandwidth as well) and my ICOM-7100 at home and so far I don’t notice any major differences that sound like a bandwidth mismatch. Many ham VHF/UHF transceivers have a 5kHz narrow bandwidth setting and listening to that with your receiver set to 10Khz is a noticeable difference. If anyone is going to be running a high bandwidth mobile I figure they're going to be on the Denver repeaters as their use of split-codes precludes the use of the consumer grade midland radios. Also, some of those folks talk about converting old commercial radios which should be running a higher bandwidth, so I think chances are I have heard them but there is no good way for me to tell.

    This past weekend on Slaughterhouse Gulch, I think I saw one of the little antennas on Shane's G wagon that appears to be a Micromobile, but I forgot to ask him about it. I know several of our group members were using handhelds. I had both my K805G and my IC-2730 and everyone sounded just fine. We had 7 or 8 jeeps spread out pretty far at a few points and running 5 watts on channel 4 seemed to work perfectly fine. I was at the tail and Shane was the lead for the latter part of the run and I could hear his audio very clearly.

    Now CTCSS and DCS codes may take some thought to sort out. Last weekend was my first real trail-test with GMRS where it was the primary service used instead of CB. We didn’t specify it, but I ran without codes and it appears everyone could hear me so I think it’s clear we all ran without codes. I think the rain kept a lot of people home so there wasn’t much radio traffic to contend with. I have scanned GMRS frequencies on other trail runs in the past while the group used CB and although there was more traffic there didn’t appear to be so much to make it problematic. The pending drop in license fees could change that.

    There is the added complication that with consumer FRS radios not all manufacturers/models number their CTCSS and DCS codes the same. There are conversion charts but there is always a chance that someone will show up with something that's not on a chart. I don’t think it’s in the nature of this group to specify the use of any particular code as a standard for the same reason that we don’t specify the use of a particular radio service or type at all... it's one of those things that you could request when you organize a run. In my opinion, the kind of problem you describe points me toward recommending against the use of CTCSS or DCS codes just because I think it's easier to turn them off then it would be to get everyone on the same code... but you needed to fire up CHIRP to turn yours off and that’s not typically a trailhead fix. That may be an example where one of the extra FRS radios I threw in my jeep could have come in handy. I know a few others had spares as well last weekend to lend out if needed.


    I'd like to hear what others think about the use of CTCSS or DCS codes. Maybe running open will be a problem in the future. Maybe not. Running open seems to me the most inclusive option, which seems to be in line with the spirit of this group.

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    Mad Maxx (June 2nd, 2021)

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    Default Re: Jeep Jamboree replacing CB with GMRS for 2021



    I haven't gotten very far into it, but I enjoyed using chirp to setup all of my Baofengs the same.
    Being able to add all the Rugged Ridge frequencies, the standard FRS and GMRS freqs, and quite a few of the local county freqs, I thought was really cool.

    edit: In terms of privacy, I feel like we would be happy just changing freq's if one seems too saturated.

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    Default Re: Jeep Jamboree replacing CB with GMRS for 2021



    Trevor? previously posted:
    "I'd like to hear what others think about the use of CTCSS or DCS codes. Maybe running open will be a problem in the future. Maybe not. Running open seems to me the most inclusive option, which seems to be in line with the spirit of this group."

    I absolutely agree - I think using CTCSS or DCS tones is nonsensical with FRS/GMRS in general, especially since you're not even giving your group any privacy, and potentially talking over anyone else on that frequency without a different tone set. Also like you mentioned - adding, removing or changing them isn't exactly convenient.

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    Default Re: Jeep Jamboree replacing CB with GMRS for 2021



    Mad Maxx previously posted:
    "I bought a pair of cheap FRS radios only to discover they weren't picking up audio from..."

    Can I ask what kind of radio you're playing with? My definition of cheap are the amazon.com Chinese radios putting out 1/2 watt that my wife's aunt bought for my kids. I think 2 radios may have been $10-$12. Despite the low cost they've survived my kids so far and they sound decent. But you're talking about something you can program with CHIRP so that sounds a little more interesting.

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    Default Re: Jeep Jamboree replacing CB with GMRS for 2021



    Trevor? previously posted:
    "Can I ask what kind of radio you're playing with? My definition of cheap are the amazon.com Chinese radios putting out 1/2 watt that my wife's aunt bought for my kids. I think 2 radios may have been $10-$12. Despite the low cost they've survived my kids so far and they sound decent. But you're talking about something you can program with CHIRP so that sounds a little more interesting."

    Fyi. The chinese radios you can program with chirp are not legal for use on frs/gmrs even though they accept those frequencies. Lots of people do, but not legal. Any handheld radio with a removable antenna is not legal for frs.
    ___________
    Tom
    -.- . ----- .-- - -.-.

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    Default Re: Jeep Jamboree replacing CB with GMRS for 2021



    The Wouxn KG-805F may be the only exception to that, certainly the only one I am aware of. It's pretty much the same radio as the KG-805G for GMRS save for some firmware changes to lower the power, permanent attachment of the antenna, and the FCC cert for FRS. It's programmable via software, and I believe (but not sure) some folks have gotten it to work with CHIRP.

    Now I think it takes a very specific customer to need or want a programmable FRS radio. It looks like you can program CTCSS or DCS codes to specific channels and also program split codes, but I'm not aware of any applications for that other than making it harder for people to scan codes for repeaters... and this is a service that doesn't allow repeaters. It's also almost $80.

    Btech seems to be importing FCC certified GMRS radios that are basically UV-82's. Maybe there are other chinese radios that are starting to get certified as well. It seems to be driven mostly by the importers, who the FCC appears to target for non-compliance these days.

    Also the little cheap radios my kids play with have legit-looking FCC ID codes. The submitted photos and test reports appear to match. Looking for the code on the back of the radio or under the battery and googling it is a good way to check if your radio is legal for anyone who is interested or curious.

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    Default Re: Jeep Jamboree replacing CB with GMRS for 2021



    I was running the midland gmrs in my G and Scott was using one of my Midland handheld FMRS radios.

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    Trevor? (June 3rd, 2021)

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    Default Re: Jeep Jamboree replacing CB with GMRS for 2021



    The FRS radios I got are Pofung T15s, I think they were just over $20 for a pair on Ebay. They do have fixed, non-removable antennas. Even though they're listed as having all 22 FRS channels, they only have 16, and only 16 rows appeared in CHIRP and it didn't appear possible to add the others.

    They actually aren't listed in CHIRP, but they can be programmed in CHIRP as Baofeng BF-888s - I guess they use the same software.

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    Trevor? (June 3rd, 2021)

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    Default Re: Jeep Jamboree replacing CB with GMRS for 2021



    It depends on what ID number happens to be on the particular radio you have, but it appears there is at least a version of this Pofung that has gotten Part 95B certification:

    https://fccid.io/2AJGMBF-T15

    That's a cool little radio. I'd guess they saved a few bucks by omitting a display. Sometimes a simple interface is nice.

    Its nice to see that these import radios may be getting tested more often... they should then be meeting the spurious emissions requirements and not splattering all over the band.

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    Default Re: Jeep Jamboree replacing CB with GMRS for 2021



    Mad Maxx previously posted:
    "Even though they're listed as having all 22 FRS channels, they only have 16, and only 16 rows appeared in CHIRP and it didn't appear possible to add the others."

    Another observation; If you look at the GMRS/FRS channel numbering and their corresponding frequencies, you'll notice the frequencies are not all sequential. Channels 8-14 are all 5Mhz higher than the rest and per GMRS and FRS rules are all limited at 0.5 watts power for both services. I bet that to save costs on this little handheld they just omitted these frequencies so their radio only has to produce a single output power level.

    Its also worth pointing out that the way the FCC rules are written, channels 8-14 are for handheld radio use only. You wont find any certified GMRS mobile radio with these channels. So if someone is using one of these little FRS handhelds for wheeling where anyone in the group is likely to have a mobile then maybe it really doesn't matter much that these frequencies are omitted.

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    Jim (June 4th, 2021)

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    Default Re: Jeep Jamboree replacing CB with GMRS for 2021



    am i supposed to register my little handhelds I just got or should I wait until I order and get my larger one that Shane has in his car to register? (or do i need to do all?)

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    Default Re: Jeep Jamboree replacing CB with GMRS for 2021



    TDash previously posted:
    "am i supposed to register my little handhelds I just got or should I wait until I order and get my larger one that Shane has in his car to register? (or do i need to do all?)"

    Depends on transmit power and bands. The easy answer is "yes", but there is an exception for radios with a transmit power of under 2W and fixed antenna -- https://www.fcc.gov/wireless/bureau-...io-service-frs

    Do you have the FCC ID for your radios? You could look up transmit power by the FCC ID. For example, my radios have FCC qualification information here (https://fccid.io/AZ489FT4924)

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    Default Re: Jeep Jamboree replacing CB with GMRS for 2021



    Trevor? previously posted:
    "Another observation; If you look at the GMRS/FRS channel numbering and their corresponding frequencies, you'll notice the frequencies are not all sequential. Channels 8-14 are all 5Mhz higher than the rest and per GMRS and FRS rules are all limited at 0.5 watts power for both services. I bet that to save costs on this little handheld they just omitted these frequencies so their radio only has to produce a single output power level."

    You're correct, that's exactly what they did and I didn't even notice! I'm glad you pointed that out and saved me from potentially ending up on the trail wondering why my upper channels don't match anyone else's.

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    Default Re: Jeep Jamboree replacing CB with GMRS for 2021



    There are no requirements for users to register individual radios. The FCC wants anyone using a GMRS radio to get a license, and if you obtain the license that covers you and your family for as many GMRS radios that your heart desires to own.

    Manufacturers of radios are responsible for having their products tested to determine if they meet the FCC technical requirements for whatever radio service they are used for. Because a lot of untested/uncertified radios have flooded the market in recent years are made in China and the FCC has no jurisdiction over them, they have targeted domestic radio importers to enforce compliance. Technically individual users are responsible for only using properly tested and certified radios, but so far that has been impractical to enforce by the FCC unless someone is going out of their way to interfere with another licensed user repeatedly enough to attract the FCCs attention.

    If your handhelds are FRS radios, anyone can use them without getting any license. Any mobile radio like Shane's is a GMRS radio and some handhelds are GMRS radios, and if you have the desire to do right by the FCC then you should get your GMRS license before transmitting with them. Simply owning it or listening to it should have no potential ramifications.

    So there's another long-winded answer. Sorry. I would encourage anyone using GMRS radios to get a license, and to avoid using non-certified radios, primarily because they can transmit with too much power and often produce spurious emissions that interfere with other users, but that's just my opinion. At the end of the day it's up to each of us to decide what we want to do.

    Edit: I'm also completely ignoring HAM/Amateur radio stuff here, and I just realized how much I butchered my spelling here when I typed this out on my phone.

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