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Thread: 1977 J10 Honcho "Magnum"

  1. #61
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    Default Re: 1977 J10 Honcho "Magnum"



    James, you've probably already seen this but they have a kit for the 72 and newer CJ5 with the 4.2L I6. I'm assuming yours has the 3.8L?
    https://howellefi.com/product/tbi-ki...issions-legal/

    Not sure why that wouldn't work with a 4.2 in a 1970 CJ, what really changed in those two model years?

    Also can confirm James' info on the TBI, its like a carb that they gave a brain and electronically activated gas squirters, that needs sensors to know how much to squirt. Bolts right in place of a carb on the intake so its really easy to retrofit to carbed vehicles.

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    Default Re: 1977 J10 Honcho "Magnum"



    TyTheJeepGuy previously posted:
    "James, you've probably already seen this but they have a kit for the 72 and newer CJ5 with the 4.2L I6. I'm assuming yours has the 3.8L?
    https://howellefi.com/product/tbi-ki...issions-legal/

    Not sure why that wouldn't work with a 4.2 in a 1970 CJ, what really changed in those two model years?
    "

    Huge change...Kaiser sold Jeep to AMC in the spring of 1970, but the 1971 model year was kept the same as the 1970. In 1972, AMC made the changes to their engines (the famous 232/258 inline 6 and 304 v8) and quite a bit of other stuff....1971 is the last of the early cj5 and 72 is the beginning of the intermediate cj5 vintages. The Kaiser era ran a 3.7 v6 that had been bought from buick - its commonly known as the dauntless 225 odd fire. Its history is a bit weird, but Buick basically took their v8 and chopped two cylinders off and rushed it into production using as much of the v8 parts slightly modified as possible. One of its unique features is the cylinder firing is not consistent...thus the 'odd-fire'. Most engines fire a spark plug with a consisent time gap between each spark from one cylinder to the next (assuming constant rpm here). The odd fire fires two consecutive cylinders with a small time gap, and then there is a large time gap to the 3rd cylinder, another short gap to the 4th, large to the 5th and short to the 6th....the 2 large time gaps are basically the missing two cylinders from the v8 design. So basically, even at constant rpm, a tach signal from the ignition is inconsistent...the computer sees 2 quick sparks and then a big gap and thinks the engine rpm is slowing and then it thinks the rpm is increasing again as the quick sparks happen and so on and so forth. At higher cruising rpms, it all kinds of evens out and doesn't cause too much issue, but at lower rpm (say slow wheeling) the computer starts causing all sorts of issues and the engine idle becomes very erractic. This is all assuming that you have replaced the points distributor with HEI (and this is true I think for any TBI conversion such as old sbc's), as points distributors with traditional ignition coils don't put out a sharp enough defined electric signal for the computer to pick-up...Varioius signal filters can be used to help the situation, but HEI usually is the trick, or a crank sensor tach signal is needed. I decided I am happy with my slightly upgraded points distributor to pertronix, but don't want to go full HEI, and fitting a crank sensor has some complications (a friend just finished it within the last couple weeks and his odd fire is apparently awesome with TBI now - but it has been almost a full year of troubleshooting, debugging and fabricating pieces for the crank sensor - which is basically the only solution.) Honestly, after getting the cj5 running so well with carb and basic ignition etc - I don't really care to change it. But I am interested to try out the TBI on something a bit more straight forward, and a sbc would be just about right. Interesting enough, after AMC bought Jeep, they sold the dauntless v6 back to Buick, whom made it a bit bigger (3.8L 231 c.i.) to match the now slightly bigger buick v8 but kept it odd fire for another year or two. They eventually made the needed changes to the internals (crank, camshaft etc) to make the engine an even fire and installed HEI from the factory....This engine became the Buick Grand National and eventually was turbo'd in the 90s or so. Any all of these engine use the same block and can be dropped directly in place of each other....The odd-fire has a distinct low rpm grumble that some love, but if my current 225 (bored 60 over and at its limit for larger pistons rings etc) ever needs replaced, I think an even-fired 231 would be nice.
    ___________
    James Orofino
    1970 CJ5
    1958 Willys Wagon

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    Default Re: 1977 J10 Honcho "Magnum"



    Wow, that is nuts. I think I'd stick with a carb as well. Its amazing that you know someone who was able to successfully fab a custom crank sensor, sounds harder than doing an engine swap to the AMC inline six that was in my dad's CJ5.

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    Default Re: 1977 J10 Honcho "Magnum"



    TyTheJeepGuy previously posted:
    "Wow, that is nuts. I think I'd stick with a carb as well. Its amazing that you know someone who was able to successfully fab a custom crank sensor, sounds harder than doing an engine swap to the AMC inline six that was in my dad's CJ5."

    The early cj5 are also known as the 'short nose' 5, as AMC lengthed the engine compartment by redoing to grill and pushing the radiator forward and pushed the firewall rearward 3" to fit the inline 6. Overall wheelbase went from 81" to 84" as well - all of that found in the cowl area behind the front fender and in front of the windshield. Trying to squeeze an inline 6 into an early cj5 is a fool's errand...Big changes occured starting with the 72 model year. A 70 or 71 is pretty much the same as the first year of production (1955) with Willys and the F4 134 engine.
    ___________
    James Orofino
    1970 CJ5
    1958 Willys Wagon

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    Default Re: 1977 J10 Honcho "Magnum"



    Your Jeep is looking great, can't wait to see it "done". I ran the Howell kit on an 88 YJ with a 4.2, it is all GM TBI stuff from the 90s and it works GREAT.

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    Default Re: 1977 J10 Honcho "Magnum"



    FINOCJ previously posted:
    "Buick basically took their v8 and chopped two cylinders off and rushed it into production using as much of the v8 parts slightly modified as possible. [...] the 2 large time gaps are basically the missing two cylinders from the v8 design."

    I was awaiting your reply (somewhat knowing what was coming). Perhaps I missed it in past write-ups, but now I finally understand the odd-fire issue - a V-8 chopped with the rest running in V-6 form - missing the two cyls. Thx.

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    Default Re: 1977 J10 Honcho "Magnum"



    sorry to trample on Ty's thread, but maybe this is inspiring to see TBI work on an old engine...my friend Kyle who I have run the rubicon with the last few years. He started this TBI on the odd-fire v6 right after last year's trip in July and just got it working right. I am having some technical difficulties with loading the video - so here is just a link to his webpage...18 pages and 10 monts to get it right....hopefully you can see it without being logged in.
    http://www.earlycj5.com/xf_cj5/index...8#post-1662510
    ___________
    James Orofino
    1970 CJ5
    1958 Willys Wagon

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  11. #68
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    Default Re: 1977 J10 Honcho "Magnum"



    I'm beyond excited to get this project done but still waiting on Edelbrock assembly lines to get back in action, I suppose. In the meantime, does anyone who has replaced an intake manifold on a V8 have any tips or suggestions? I think I have the basic procedure down and it comes with installation instructions. I'm interested if anyone preps the intake manifold a certain way or has any insight on common things to look out for.

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    Default Re: 1977 J10 Honcho "Magnum"



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-xeB-m9wB8&t=1113s

    Check this out! Almost makes me wish I went for the ported fuel injection instead of TBI, especially since I had to upgrade the intake manifold anyway, but I'm going to do exactly what the emissions tech says and I don't think TBI will be much worse than ported fuel injection.

    Those are awesome numbers in the video out of a 304, imagine a 401+

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    Default Re: 1977 J10 Honcho "Magnum"



    TyTheJeepGuy previously posted:
    "Almost makes me wish I went for the ported fuel injection instead of TBI"

    "It" never ends...

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    FINOCJ (May 26th, 2021),TyTheJeepGuy (May 26th, 2021)

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    Default Re: 1977 J10 Honcho "Magnum"



    Got too impatient, wanted to work all the kinks out of the EFI conversion so that when the new intake came, I could slap it on, hook up the EGR system and be ready to pass emissions. Also... wouldn't it be fun to have EFI without all the waiting?

    Some issues I encountered along the way:

    - The vehicle speed sensor adapter was too wide. Bought a 7" extension to give the flexibility to get up and over a hump on the transfer case that apparently isn't a problem in other applications of this kit.
    - The harness only wants to go in one way. This makes sense to keep the mess down, but despite my best efforts, I still drilled a hole on the wrong downpipe according to how far the harness wants to let the o2 sensor wire stretch. I will have to call up an exhaust shop and see if they can weld up that hole and properly weld in the bung for the other downpipe.
    - I had to buy a lot of extra wire and vacuum and fuel line tubing to complete this.
    - My return lines to the tank they said should be fine but they absolutely spray fuel all along the frame. Whoops. More fuel line!
    - Took me a while to find the Tach reading because I don't have a stock ignition coil / distributor. The coil is in the distributor, its an HEI. I have a pigtail connector for power/tach coming in the mail but for now I'm just using crimped spades.
    - The harness really doesn't give you much room for finding a place to put the ECU. Either you have to pull a lot of your wiring closer to the firewall hole or the HUGE ECU unit case is right at the hole, near your pedals.
    - Speaking of the firewall hole, they said 1 1/2" to fit everything through, and yet gave a MASSIVE fuse block with wings on it for mounting. I made a much larger cut than 1 1/2" that's for sure. Custom saw job; its ugly gentlemen just warning you now.
    - The instructions can only be so helpful when it comes to making the right electrical connections. Luckily I had a test light and eventually found the wires and fuse block locations necessary. For example, the ECU fuse block required a connection to a wire that was hot during crank and run, but off when key switched off.

    And what we've all been waiting for! Video evidence of the Honcho Magnum with electronic throttle body injection!
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/wQRKbqmhFwvzfiRq8

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    Default Re: 1977 J10 Honcho "Magnum"



    It's alive!

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    Default Re: 1977 J10 Honcho "Magnum"



    speedkills previously posted:
    "It's alive!"

    Nice !
    ___________
    In a never ending search for the proper mix of dirt & rock !

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    Default Re: 1977 J10 Honcho "Magnum"



    Things left to do before the J10 is to a drivable state (that I am aware of at this point):

    - I ran a new return line but the metal section just before the tank is corroded and leaking heavy. Will have to drop the tank to figure that out
    - I hooked up a new AWD selector vacuum switch (https://www.bjsoffroad.com/Transfer-...ed_p_1595.html) but I need to follow the vacuum lines and make sure they're all hooked up correctly, then test out that the awd will actually engage
    - The brake booster needs to be T'd in to the vacuum off of the intake manifold, currently only being used by the new T case switch
    - I need to pull the thermostat housing from the intake in order to install a new (unused until I get the emissions stuff back together) CTO switch. The vacuum nipples stick out too far and you can't back it out while the thermostat housing is connected to the intake manifold.

    My goal is to be able to take it on a light trial / camping trip by the end of the summer.

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    Default Re: 1977 J10 Honcho "Magnum"



    Turns out, I didn't need to run new fuel line for the return line. The existing metal return line was just disconnected from a short rubber hose on the fuel sending unit. I blame the shop that I initially sent the Honcho too, they hooked up the sending unit for me (eventually, after letting the truck sit for months). I also directly connected the brake booster to the intake manifold instead of T'ing it in, just as a temporary way. I will need to get some kind of reducer T since the vacuum hoses for the AWD selector that were there are waaaay smaller than the brake booster line.

    Yesterday I removed the thermostat housing to install a new CTO switch (will be unused until I get the EGR system hooked up) and dropped the tank to find out the return line leak issue. I was pretty proud of being able to drop the tank and get it back up into position after confirming the leak problem was fixed with tank still unmounted.

    The leaks fixed and the booster hooked up meant that I could take this thing for a joyride finally! I just went up and down the street quickly since I don't have an air cleaner yet.

    Next steps:
    - I need a better way to power the fuse block for the ECU. Right now I'm just doing the classic "wrap a wire around the fuse" method. Open to suggestions! (related pic attached)
    - The ECU fuse block and ECU itself need to be mounted somehow in the cab. There is such a mess of wires there already this might be more difficult than it should be.
    - Figure out vacuum from one source on intake manifold for both brake booster and AWD selector
    - Confirm that AWD selector works after visually checking that the vacuum lines are actually hooking in to the transfer case
    - Get a friend to help me put hood back on
    - Have a pigtail coming in for distributor connections instead of the current janky spade connectors
    - It idles kinda rough, need to check power to fuse block for ECU and power to HEI distributor
    - I want to remove the unused aux tank, free up more bed space
    - I'm going to have a shop weld in the O2 sensor bung on the drivers side downpipe. My clamp-on is on the passenger side and it forces the o2 sensor wire to be way too close to the exhaust manifold.

    A couple more videos:
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/SXNKi4ijp2Kcr1bg9
         

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  22. #77
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    Default Re: 1977 J10 Honcho "Magnum"



    the TBI project is all done up for now because I finally got a spacer in the mail for the air cleaner to clear the throttle linkage. Until I can hook up emissions systems w/ new intake manifold, the installation step of this project is done. Its not the most beautiful thing you've ever seen but all of the electrical and vacuum connections are solid and everything is mounted.
    It runs kind of rough, rough idle. There is an idle screw that pretty much just pushes on the throttle linkage plate thing to give it more gas at idle, that is only supposed to be adjusted after you get the rest of the timing in place. Based on their description in the installation pdf it sounds like its a timing issue. They described that it could be that if there was a hiccup from idling to open throttle and there definitely is, more so than with the carb. I'm just pretty happy it runs well!

    The check engine light is on, I have an OBD1 reader coming in that should be able to tell me what is going on. My theory is it is going to complain about the EGR and PCV systems not being in place.

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    Default Re: 1977 J10 Honcho "Magnum"



    Is timing showing as proper?

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    Default Re: 1977 J10 Honcho "Magnum"



    I don't have a timing light this is my first vehicle with a distributor so still learning and gathering tools!

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    Default Re: 1977 J10 Honcho "Magnum"



    Local auto parts store might have one on their free loan program

    (for about as often as you'd need to use it - perhaps the lower cost route)

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