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Thread: network trivia question...

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    Default network trivia question...



    My three year old computer has trouble finding the internet. Everything has been fine until this past week, (coincidentally) shortly after installing turbo-tax 2015...

    Anyway, I bought some RJ45 plugs and one of these gems: http://www.homedepot.com/p/DataShark...0025/205972192

    My patch cord tested good. I hooked the master unit to the socket at the desk, and slave to the cable at the modem, all the circuits showed continuity, but the slave LEDs ran in reverse order to the master.

    FINE! I rewire the socket at the desktop, everything tests out with the new diagnostic tool. If I restart the computer, reset the modem, or leave the computer idle, it has no network connection. If I do a cold boot, my computer can find the network, and everything works great, for hours on end!

    My question is, can wiring the pins backwards damage the hardware inside my computer?

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    Default Re: network trivia question...



    Generally, no. Many network switches have intelligence built in to "reverse" the connection.

    In network terms, a connection could be cabled "straight through" or "crossover". Typically, in-wall wiring and patch cords are wired "straight through". The switch handles comms correctly (transmit lines matching with receive lines). If you were looking to connect two systems together without a switch, you'd wire some component in the chain between the two as "crossover" - so that transmit matches up with receive (else you'd have transmit talking with transmit and nothing would be "heard").

    No damage is done with twisted pair wiring if wired incorrectly (in my experience). At worst, a network interface could be blown - but I've never experienced that happening (modems hit by lightning, yes, but network interfaces, not yet).

    If all was working fine until a software change - then I'd focus on software being the issue. I would not expect TTax to cause the issue, but it is possible. Another test, if you have a different computer in the house, unplug the cable that is going into this system and plug it into a different system. Does that system have Internet access issues? Does the problem move to the different system or does it stay with the at-issue system?

    EDIT: If you look at your in-wall wiring jacks. They are likely color coded with an A or B scheme (EIA-TIA 568-A or EIA-TIA 568-B). It does not matter which scheme you pick for that line - but both ends should be terminated under the same scheme. When I started with twisted pair cabling I was told the most common scheme is "B". I've terminated B and have only encountered "B" when I go into existing wiring cabinets - so B is popular, though it does not matter so long as each end is the same.

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    Default Re: network trivia question...



    Thanks Jim!

    I uninstalled TT, no change. I looked at three pages of history in my Norton AV. There was a root key change a week ago, and a bunch of blocked attacks since. I'll have to go back to this after shoveling snow...

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    Default Re: network trivia question...



    Is this a Windows 10 system by chance? Win10 does have an issue with ?wireless only? network connectivity on cold start (from shutdown) vs. reboot.

    After uninstalling TTax, a System Restore to a pre-TTax install date would also be desired (as uninstalling does not, typically, put things 100% back to what it was pre-install).

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    Default Re: network trivia question...



    Win 7, hard-wired to an Xfinity modem. A cold boot does not guarantee connectivity, but a restart guarantees no connectivity. I never thought of system restore, I might try that tonight, after everything else is done.

    This network was wired by an amateur. Does continuity as measured by the tester, validate the wire's ability to transfer data? There could well be a kink in the cable, in a wall or the attic.

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    Default Re: network trivia question...



    Are you sure it's not an Xfinity issue? Just sayin'
    ___________
    Chris in Florida

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    Default Re: network trivia question...



    Hypoid previously posted:
    "This network was wired by an amateur. Does continuity as measured by the tester, validate the wire's ability to transfer data? There could well be a kink in the cable, in a wall or the attic."

    Does continuity count - no, but it is a needed start. Think of this, while voltage does need to be expressed from one end to the other, the line switches on/off with such a high rate (if I recall, 33MHz for a 100Mb/s data connection) that you're mixing getting voltage from one end to the other with an antenna to "guide" that voltage signal properly to the other end.

    Rules for twisted pair as I was taught:
    1) No more "pull" put onto a cable (when being pulled through walls and such) than about what a human can pull with two arms straight out in front of chest, network cable clenched in fists with fists pulling out on the cable. The cable can take "some" pull and not be damaged - but think of installation - that two arms straight out condition does not happen, rather the Tug-Of-War pull stance is typically encountered - which can easily over-pull the cable.

    Why does this matter: The copper in the data/signal carrying cable gets thinned and this increases resistance between the pull point and where the cable was restricted.

    2) (this is a big deal and is likely encountered - think "fitting" [cramming] cable into single gang workstation boxes - ugh) No smaller than a 6" bend RADIUS - that's a 1 foot diameter circle. Now, as a cable is being pulled from a pull-box and the cable snags - does the installer open the box to gently tend the snag or did the installer "yank it" and then see the knot in the cable - to which the knot was not cut out but rather un-knotted / un-kinked, "smoothed out so it looks good" and continue on?

    Why does this matter: The four twisted pairs have specific twist rates. This is to reduce crosstalk. When a kink happens the twist rate is disrupted such that the affected portion could have greater crosstalk.

    Now, at workstation boxes - which are near a network interface (router/switch/computer), crosstalk is the greatest risk as it is closest to the loud transmitter signal.

    Grab four people. Put two at each end of a football field. One person at each end has a big mouth and the other has big ears. In FullDuplex mode (the typical mode for network comms), the mouth at each end is yelling to the ears at the other end at the same time. Each ears end has to hear the signal from the far end but ignore the signal from the loud mouth standing right next to it. Network cabling, aside from mixed up wiring, has two general issues: Crosstalk and Attenuation. Crosstalk is often problematic with NEXT - Near End Cross Talk (vs. FEXT far end cross talk) as the loud transmitter mouth bleeds into the ears standing right next to it.

    Crosstalk happens when a transmitter's signal (the big mouth) at one end of the field jumps into the ears of the receiver standing right next to them. The receiver is unable to hear the signal from the other end of the field because the transmitter standing next to them overpowers the other end. Putting a kink or a small bend radius in network cabling near to each end of the run between electronic devices would give a greater chance of crosstalk.

    Attenuation happens when the signal from the big mouth at one end of the field is weakened (that thinned copper with high resistance from 40 yard line to 40 yard line...) such that not enough hits the ears of the receiver at the other end.

    A copper cable twisted pair network install is designed for 100 meters between network interfaces - a transmitter of x strength and a receiver of y capability with cable of z characteristic in between (typical as 90 meters of in-wall and 10 meters total for patch cabling for the ends). It is a designed system that needs to work cohesively. Disrupt a component and issues can happen (though, as below, it's danged robust).

    While those are said, I'll also say, twisted pair cabling and the network protocols that run atop it are VERY robust. I've seen communications happen (likely with copius retries happening) over very suspect cable installs. It takes a LOT to mess up and have a non-functioning system. I'd guess your wiring is not the cause and that the computer is having issues. As it seems you have a separate system in the house, swap systems and see where the problems goes / bring the laptop to where the problem system is cabled.

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    Default Re: network trivia question...



    Chris previously posted:
    "Are you sure it's not an Xfinity issue? Just sayin' "

    I tried jumping the network cables around on the back of the modem. Two cables worked, one did not, regardless of position.

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    Default Re: network trivia question...



    Jim previously posted:
    "As it seems you have a separate system in the house, swap systems and see where the problems goes / bring the laptop to where the problem system is cabled."

    I brought Junior's laptop (updated to WIN 10) to the problem circuit, runs like gangbusters!

    I'll try the system restore after doing a few more things.

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    Default Re: network trivia question...



    Hypoid previously posted:
    "(updated to WIN 10)"

    Windows 10 is so bad for computers lol.

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    Default Re: network trivia question...



    MultiScuf previously posted:
    "Windows 10 is so bad for computers lol."

    I only upgraded to 10 on one of mine (yea I have lots and lots). No problems so far. Upgraded last July. Still on 8.1 on my big workstation and HP Envy, 7 on everything else. Out of em all, I actually like 8.1 the best.

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    Default Re: network trivia question...



    Hypoid previously posted:
    "I'll try the system restore after doing a few more things."

    No change, except Norton lost 60 MB of updates. That took three tries as the red X flashed on the network icon. I see a lot of messages about the network adapter losing the IP address. I'll futz around with the thing tonight.

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    Default Re: network trivia question...



    One option that seems to help - go into device manager and delete / uninstall the network adapter. If there is an option (checkbox) to also uninstall/delete the driver - do not check it - leave the driver on the system. Reboot and the system should re-detect the device and re-load the driver. Doing this rebuilds the network subsystem for that connection (wired vs. wireless).

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    Default Re: network trivia question...



    I'll try that before another system restore. When I dug deeper into the restore points, the log showed a windows update the day before I loaded TT.

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    Default Re: network trivia question...



    Jim previously posted:
    "One option that seems to help - go into device manager and delete / uninstall the network adapter. If there is an option (checkbox) to also uninstall/delete the driver - do not check it - leave the driver on the system. Reboot and the system should re-detect the device and re-load the driver. Doing this rebuilds the network subsystem for that connection (wired vs. wireless)."

    That seemed to work. Doing a restart did nothing for it. Did a cold boot and it loads like nothing happened!

    Hopefully this is the end of the problem. As the saying goes, the proof of the pudding, is in the eating.

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    Default Re: network trivia question...



    Curious your comment about restart not doing anything but cold boot did.

    Should you encounter "No Internet" issues again, please see if there is some correlation between a restarted system vs. a cold boot system.

    Good to hear it's up and going now.

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    Default Re: network trivia question...



    Not exactly up and going. I have had a few days with no network on this machine. Today, my Mrs nagged comcast into rebooting our modem from their end. I am back to having network from a cold boot.

    That aside, I simply don't have time to work through this problem, this week.

    I do appreciate the help!

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    Default Re: network trivia question...



    A question on your Comcast modem / Internet sharing setup: Do you have a router between your computers and the modem? If not, does the Comcast modem have more than one wired Ethernet port - or just one? Does the Comcast modem have WiFi built in?

    The curiosity behind the questions - if you have one of the older / no-WiFi / One Ethernet port only modems (and you flip connections to who needs Internet at the moment) Comcast I believe is still using MAC address authentication for "the account" the modem is on. I'll leave the issue open, when you get a chance, toss up the modem's make & model number and I'll look it up.

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    Default Re: network trivia question...



    This on my Galaxy Note 4 on wifi. My hardwired workstation gets over 90mbps down. Maybe I lived a really sheltered life, IDK, but these speeds floored me. And now fiber is making it's way around. Nextlight is already up and running in some areas of Longmont delivering up to 1Gbps down and up. Can't wait to see what speeds like that looks like!!


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    Default Re: network trivia question...



    I've too busy to do much with this. Comcast did come out and fix some squirrel chews that are outside the house; speeds are much better.

    If I let it go into sleep mode, or restart, no network connection. Start from a cold boot, and the network runs great. I did some experimenting, I changed the power settings to not let the computer go into sleep mode. The network runs for days on end.

    When I was browsing the logs in Norton, I saw something about a windows update to the power/sleep (?) settings on the 13th. I had planned on doing another system restore to the 12th, but noticed updates were installing when I shut the machine off this morning...

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