Need some welding help
I have Garvin sliders on my Jeep that bolted on with self-tapping bolts. They're solid, but I'd like to have them welded as well just as extra insurance. they don't need to be done perfectly, just what can be reached easily, sides and bottom of the mounting plates or whatever works. I'll be happy to pay for your time.
here's some pics from the install:
Not much, Joe. The Jeep frames are only about 1/8" steel and are boxed. Most of the Jeep rails/sliders also rely on either a good tie in to the existing body mounts (good and solid) with the addition of a tie in to the pinch weld in numerous spots (OK) and the better ones rely on a frame/body mount tie in with the addition of a 3/16" full panel on the side of the Jeep side that everything ties into.
I haven't seen this style before and you saw the same 'weak spots' I did. Not the strongest mount, for sure, and seems more decorative than anything that is actually going to take a good hit and stand up to it....And why use self tappers, no matter the size, when there are plenty of existing holes in the frame to do a bolt through using big bolts? Pretty optimistic thinking for the company that makes them.
At any rate, easy enough to add some additional bracing back to the frame for a much stronger tie in.
I got them on Craigslist for $100.00, they're the first sliders I've put on a 4x4. I thought they were pretty good, I can jack up the jeep on them, but the self-tappers seemed weak to me... but you guys know better for sure!!
What would need to be done to make them more viable?
incase it's useful, here's a pic of the holes w/o the sliders, you can see that it's just the frame wall. The second one is interesting because the paint looks like an inkblot of a lab herding sheep:
HAHA on the lab herding the sheep! I actually saw that! Usually I simply see paint or ink blots. I have thoroughly disgusted anyone who has ever tried to give me a rorschach test. "What do you see?", they ask. "Ink blots on paper", I reply...
For $100, you have a good start. I would add a center piece back to the frame with a plate as a 3rd mounting point. If you can jack the jeep up with what you have now, I would say that a 3rd point is all that you are going to need for strength in addition to welding the existing plates.
Let me start by taking this time to reintroduce myself since I have been off the grid for a while. I have experience in welding and I design things for the Military. I also happen to be a Land rover nut and currently have 3 different models.
Ok down to business. We have to assume that the company that designed this and the way it is mounted must have thought things through (have faith people, this is America not Cuba). Given that it then has to be asked to what standard did this get tested. Not to touch on a sore subject but not everything is rated at the "hardcore" level. I did a quick FEA (Finite Element Analysis) on the joint design of you sliders. given a yield strength of 31,944 psi for mild steel I applied a 1200 lb load at the purple arrows SEE IMAGE #1 (just a random # I thought would be relevant with a safety factor included) there are places on the horizontal tube that saw in excess of 90,000 psi and a displacement of approx .128" at the end of the tube. Here I will also assume that the bolts are grade 5 that would mean that they should be able, at a min to hold 120,000 psi but given the thickness of the base metal on the frame and a 2B thread pitch on a .5 inch bolt you should have roughly 2.5 teeth engaging in the sidewall of you frame. This is not good BTW. This is where most come to the conclusion of "weld it up"
3 rules of thumb I use for welding in the 4x4 realm
- Disperse welding over large distances if possible.
- On structural welding avoid perpendicular welding on load bearing beams
- 70% to 80% of the total weld area is better than welding all around (too much heat affected zone can weaken base metal)
Conclusion:
In this case instead of using those self tappers I would have stitch welded the plate to the frame giving the sliders more strength and some beam deflection. Given the fact that the bolts are already in place here is what I would do to strengthen the sliders. SEE IMAGE #2. The flat bar adds a gusset to the direction of load. In this case it is offset do to the lower control arm location. the straighter inline it is with the slider horizontal arm the better.
My 2 cents
Just for future reference here is a prime example of why welding all around is a bad idea on load bearing beams see pic below.
This guy could have saved himself some heartache by sleeveing the frame extension and then fish plating with plug welding or stitch welds.
BTW i didn't see brody's suggestion.... totally viable IMO
Greenramp- wow. wow.thank you for responding, and for explaining it so I could get it. it's less welding on the existing plate than I expected, and the flat bar bent up makes total sense, but I wouldn't have thought of it. I like Brody's idea of another center support too, and will absolutely take your advice on attaching them. I really appreciate such a detailed answer, can't believe you took the time to do all that. you rock!
Joe that is a great explanation!
Went to Brody's this afternoon and he made new center supports, gussets all around and burned it all into one solid slider per side. Gotta say I feel like I got the deal of the century today, thank you Pete!!Here's some pics of Pete cutting the gussets, creating the center supports, burning it up, and one of his awesome truck- the camera I had with me has no flash and I just got back, so I'll post some pics of the finished work as soon as I take them...
here's the finished work, passenger side- existing plates welded and gusseted, new center section also welded and gusseted. driver's side is the same.
Thanks Paul! Great meeting you and hanging out with you! you have some very solid sliders right now, too.
Make sure LaDawn and I get posted as to the Catios and your business stuff. I want to get that information into LaDawn's rather extensive data/networking bank. I could use pictures and subject pricing on the Catios as soon as possible as it is something that comes up almost every time she shows a house in our little patio home community...Send some to Chris (Stafford) as he also lives in a similar community as well as Stephanie(Pathrat) since she also does.
Everyone's favorite garage!
Sliders look good. I'll get to check them out tomorrow.
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