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View Full Version : Stay the Trail has released their new maps site!



Speedwagon
December 20th, 2009, 05:14 PM
Check it out!

http://staythetrail.org/maps/index.php

http://www.colorado4x4.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=160292

Smash
December 21st, 2009, 07:47 AM
Ooo nice! Bookmarked.

greenramp
December 21st, 2009, 07:54 AM
WOWO that is nice. Bookmarked

Funrover
December 21st, 2009, 08:24 AM
There are a lot of trails that I don't see on there anymore. Even under the sub catagories section.... I wonder why?

Chris
December 21st, 2009, 08:27 AM
It's my understanding that any trails not on the map are now considered closed.

Funrover
December 21st, 2009, 08:44 AM
It's my understanding that any trails not on the map are now considered closed.

That's crap, who, what, how was this decieded?

Chris
December 21st, 2009, 09:20 AM
I posted this a couple times and nobody replied IIRC. It was posted numerous places, basically as I recall it any trail not in the FS database by a specified date would be considered closed. There were numerous organizations working on getting all trails added.

Funrover
December 21st, 2009, 09:59 AM
I posted this a couple times and nobody replied IIRC. It was posted numerous places, basically as I recall it any trail not in the FS database by a specified date would be considered closed. There were numerous organizations working on getting all trails added.

I remember some now, it pissed me off then too. Way to go U.S. Forest Circus!

Mporter
December 21st, 2009, 11:30 AM
Ooo nice! Bookmarked.

I agree

Brody
December 21st, 2009, 11:43 AM
It's my understanding that any trails not on the map are now considered closed.

Gee...In that case, I will continue to use my older topo maps and other trail resources rather than the 'Stay The Trail' information. If I see a 'closed to motor vehicles' sign, I will honor that, much as I do a 'no trespassing/private property' signs....

Funrover
December 21st, 2009, 11:50 AM
Gee...In that case, I will continue to use my older topo maps and other trail resources rather than the 'Stay The Trail' information. If I see a 'closed to motor vehicles' sign, I will honor that, much as I do a 'no trespassing/private property' signs....

Yup, my thoughts exactly

Brody
December 21st, 2009, 01:41 PM
Initially this looked liked a decent resource, but trying to find some actual marked FS roads that I drove last year and not having any luck, I would put this whole site way down on the list as a good resource. It is nice to have another resource for sure, but this isn't very impressive at all.

I'll stick with my old topos, traildamage and Wells books in pretty much that order, too.

cfr
December 21st, 2009, 03:01 PM
I posted this a couple times and nobody replied IIRC. It was posted numerous places, basically as I recall it any trail not in the FS database by a specified date would be considered closed. There were numerous organizations working on getting all trails added.

Note, however, for the Boulder Ranger District the new MVUM does NOT represent any changes in trail closures. It's just current policy on a new map. I went to the Boulder Ranger District MVUM open house and this was one of their FAQ

Chris
December 21st, 2009, 03:03 PM
If I see a 'closed to motor vehicles' sign, I will honor that, much as I do a 'no trespassing/private property' signs....

As I understand it if there's not a sign saying it's open to 4x4's than it isn't.

Brody
December 21st, 2009, 03:22 PM
Me, I have been wheeling in many states for over 40 years. Someone, anyone, wants a road closed or people to stay out, they need to post a sign or I am going to assume it is a road that is open and can be driven on. I will respect signs.

Speedwagon
December 21st, 2009, 04:27 PM
It's my understanding that any trails not on the map are now considered closed.

No no, don't go so fast. The site is new, and Justin has said it is very probable they have missed some trails. So send an email to Justin(that's why I linked the CO4x4 thread) if you feel there is a trail missing. STT doesn't exactly have a large staff to ensure the map is completely done. He basically said that they want feedback from people, to make it better.

Plus, if everyone has their say in it, I think it has the potential to be an excellent resource. It is funded by our taxes, fees, and donations after all, so I think we owe it to ourselves to ensure it is what we want it to be.

KnuckleHead
December 21st, 2009, 04:40 PM
Me, I have been wheeling in many states for over 40 years. Someone, anyone, wants a road closed or people to stay out, they need to post a sign or I am going to assume it is a road that is open and can be driven on. I will respect signs.

I second you there.... it's all game unless other wise posted

Fordguy77
December 21st, 2009, 04:41 PM
No no, don't go so fast. The site is new, and Justin has said it is very probable they have missed some trails. So send an email to Justin(that's why I linked the CO4x4 thread) if you feel there is a trail missing. STT doesn't exactly have a large staff to ensure the map is completely done. He basically said that they want feedback from people, to make it better.

Plus, if everyone has their say in it, I think it has the potential to be an excellent resource. It is funded by our taxes, fees, and donations after all, so I think we owe it to ourselves to ensure it is what we want it to be.

i hope that is the case and that they left off so many trials on accident or by mistake

Fordguy77
December 21st, 2009, 04:42 PM
Initially this looked liked a decent resource, but trying to find some actual marked FS roads that I drove last year and not having any luck, I would put this whole site way down on the list as a good resource. It is nice to have another resource for sure, but this isn't very impressive at all.

I'll stick with my old topos, traildamage and Wells books in pretty much that order, too.

That is the same way i am going to have it.

Haku
December 21st, 2009, 04:59 PM
It would be a better resource if it had actual maps of the trails, but I imagine that might come later. I agree that just because a trail isn't listed there, doesn't mean its illegal to run. I'll stick with Brody's idea too for now.

JH

dr350jja
December 21st, 2009, 10:03 PM
The Forest Service's stance now is: Trails are CLOSED, unless marked OPEN. This came about in the last couple years, or so. They want us to adhere to the MVUMs, since that is what determines if it is OK to be on a particular trail. Basically, it is now up to the recreationist to know where you can and can't be, to avoid the penalty of fines.

Rob
December 21st, 2009, 10:17 PM
The Forest Service's stance now is: Trails are CLOSED, unless marked OPEN. This came about in the last couple years, or so. They want us to adhere to the MVUMs, since that is what determines if it is OK to be on a particular trail. Basically, it is now up to the recreationist to know where you can and can't be, to avoid the penalty of fines.

That's true, as long as a particular district has a published final MVUM. The USFS has been way behind on getting this accomplished but it is happening. That's why we need to know when and where we can comment on the draft maps before they become final. Not that our input is worth anything.

Chris
December 21st, 2009, 11:20 PM
The Forest Service's stance now is: Trails are CLOSED, unless marked OPEN. This came about in the last couple years, or so. They want us to adhere to the MVUMs, since that is what determines if it is OK to be on a particular trail. Basically, it is now up to the recreationist to know where you can and can't be, to avoid the penalty of fines.


That's true, as long as a particular district has a published final MVUM. The USFS has been way behind on getting this accomplished but it is happening. That's why we need to know when and where we can comment on the draft maps before they become final. Not that our input is worth anything.

That's pretty much what I said Jim, thanks for backing me up. I also think that the comment period has passed.

JeffX
December 22nd, 2009, 06:52 AM
Nice site. However, it is missing MOST legitimate 4x4 routes. Just looking at it locally, it's missing Eagle rock, Baldy, Bull Park, Mt. Rosa, Shelf Rd, Phantom Canyon, Emerald Valley (partially closed), Devil's Kitchen, Mt. Herman, Balanced Rock, Schubarth, Saylor Park, Ensign gulch, Hotel Gulch and many, many more.

Good resource for what it includes,

dr350jja
December 22nd, 2009, 05:33 PM
That's true, as long as a particular district has a published final MVUM. The USFS has been way behind on getting this accomplished but it is happening. That's why we need to know when and where we can comment on the draft maps before they become final. Not that our input is worth anything.

I know in the dirt biking world, the TIGeR (Trail Inventory Gap Reduction) TEAMS were helping to map/GPS all know trails, in hopes that they would make it onto the Forest Service final maps!

Speedwagon
December 22nd, 2009, 08:40 PM
Here is a direct quote from Justin. I pointed him to this thread, so he could have the chance to clarify things about the site.


Evening everyone. I just wanted to answer/clarify a couple things...

1) The 2005 Travel Management Rule dictated that all Forests and Grasslands must designate routes that are open to motorized travel. This process included open houses (such as the Boulder Ranger District one) as well as continued public comment farther down the line. The end result of this designation process is the Motor Vehicle Use Map or MVUM. If a route is NOT shown on that map, and is on Forest Service lands, then it is officially closed. The rule is: "Closed unless DESIGNATED open" not "marked open". There is a huge difference there. By placing (or not placing) a route on the MVUM, the FS has officially designated whether or not it is open to motorized travel. That is all they are required to do. Signs are no longer the designation. That is why we list what ranger district the riding areas lie in, so that they can reference the relevant MVUM, found at www.staythetrail.org/mvum Most MVUMs for the state of Colorado are out, but yes, a few (like the Gunnison and Boulder RD) are still being completed, and will be out next year.

2) Traildamage/Wells/etc... I love the resource of those books, and other websites. I do. However, it is EXTREMELY important for enthusiasts to know that the ONLY TRUE AUTHORITY is that MVUM (or BLM Travel Maps once they start being released as part of the RMP process). That's it, thats final. The majority of the "companion maps" or "trail maps" that are currently found, or are being uploaded to, stt.org are ones that were created with clubs/Ranger Districts. We will be adding additional information (we have a part-time employee who will be focused on the continued development of that database) as we can find it, get it, bribe someone to share it, trade for it, etc. This additional information includes GPS tracks, trail-level maps, photos of the trail and obstacles, contact information, etc. My basic advice to people wanting to continue using Topos, etc is to pull up the www.staythetrail.org/mvum website once or twice a year and before any big trips into places you haven't been before, and just double check your maps. No one is saying that they are wrong, but MVUMs can change year to year... Forest Maps get reprinted every 5 to 7, books can be a few years, and topos can be awhile too. Just check them against the current MVUM.

3) TiGer Teams... These teams are a part of the Colorado Off-Highway Vehicle Coaltion (original founding partner of Stay The Trail). They have been riding trails and getting GPS tracks so that the historically used trails will make it onto travel maps and MVUMs. This effort is incredible, and should not be overlooked. However, in creating the map that we have on the STT website, we CANNOT use data that is not currently approved, and accepted, by the Forest Service and BLM. Some of the routes that COHVCO has inventoried are not included in that grouping...

4) Stuff missing... We knew it would happen, and welcome suggestions. If there is a trail within one of those systems that people would like to see on this map, then please email the area, trail name, trail number, etc to justin@staythetrail.org As mentioned above, we have a part-time staff member who is dedicated to the continued development of this as a resource.

5) Trails closed... STT is not an authority, nor should our map(s) be seen as such. We are a resource. As mentioned, the final say comes from the USFS MVUM and the "coming-soon" BLM Travel Maps. If well-used routes (ie-Boulder Carnage) are closed, we do our best to get the information out to where we can.

6) The "no sign means i'm going to drive it" mentality is asking for trouble. The rule is changed. Period... The Responsible Recreation Foundation (STT's parent entity) has been receiving grants to help put signs on the ground to help eliminate confusion, but that is not as a replacement to knowing those MVUMs. To date, that effort has been a little over $150,000 in grants awarded to do this, with signs going to MANY ranger districts and field offices around the state. We recognize that historically it has been signs that have been the navigation tool letting us know whats open and to what vehicles, but times have changed.

In all honesty, our map/website is probably directed more towards the out-of-state enthusiast or newcomer to the OHV community who just wants to know where they can go, what they can/cannot do, and who they can contact for more info... many of the people on the forums are seasoned and know the rules, even if they may not agree with them. They also tend to know that the quickest ways to get a trail shut down is to disregard the rules and/or destroy resources. More information on grants, regulations, MVUMs, and general questions can be found at www.staythetrail.org/faq

So... in short: Thanks to everyone for their comments. If you would like to provide additional input, please email me with whatever you've got. Especially any clubs/organizations that have produced trail-level maps that we can host as part of this database...

Thanks again for the comments.

-Justin Lilly
justin@staythetrail.org

Lysmachia
January 20th, 2010, 10:04 PM
Nice site. However, it is missing MOST legitimate 4x4 routes. Just looking at it locally, it's missing Eagle rock, Baldy, Bull Park, Mt. Rosa, Shelf Rd, Phantom Canyon, Emerald Valley (partially closed), Devil's Kitchen, Mt. Herman, Balanced Rock, Schubarth, Saylor Park, Ensign gulch, Hotel Gulch and many, many more.

Good resource for what it includes,

That was initally what I thought when I saw it for example with Bunce School and Iron Clads, but you really have to search around. Sometimes they list a grouping of trails by an area and under a ranger distruct and not under an obvious name like Bunce School.

Example:
http://staythetrail.org/maps/viewtrail.php?trail_id=51&sort=0&view=0&nonav=0


Also after much discussion on some other forums, IF there is a trail marker physically listing a trail number or name like FS#102, on the trail THEN, the trail is considered open, unless otherwsie blocked off or gated by the USFS.

Pathrat
January 20th, 2010, 10:34 PM
Trail usage and closed/open aside, I like that there is a map and list on the same page for easy reference when I am looking for something to do. I would consider this another source to augment my usual sources.

Brody
January 21st, 2010, 07:01 AM
Well, without going to the site again (and I have to say I was really unimpressed) I hope that ends up better than the map that I got for free in the mail the other day. Not to say I don't like free stuff, but if you are going to go through the effort to layout, print, and mail something, it ought
to have some functional value. Both LaDawn and I looked at the Stay The Trails map we got and went "Gee....nice, I guess.... but what good is it?"