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Funrover
July 21st, 2009, 12:50 PM
This was used by Land Rover back in 1989, A few trails have changed but I really want to go.

http://discoweb.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=49176&d=1248113614

I will try to find an actual readable version while not at work.

Funrover
July 21st, 2009, 01:17 PM
Vid


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsOC-URG4oE

JeepersCreepers
July 21st, 2009, 08:03 PM
Wonder how long it takes to run the whole thing

4Runninfun
July 21st, 2009, 09:16 PM
definitely recognize a good number of those trails from the vid.

Funrover
July 22nd, 2009, 06:58 AM
Wonder how long it takes to run the whole thing

The route they did took 13 days

white collar redneck dad
July 22nd, 2009, 10:36 AM
I'm open for a trip like this one. Does anyone have trail specifics from denver to telluride?

Funrover
July 22nd, 2009, 10:41 AM
The link I put up has it.. just having troubles converting so everyone can see

white collar redneck dad
July 22nd, 2009, 11:00 AM
Doing this run mid september to early october would awesome with aspen leaves changing!!

QUOTE=Funrover;50519]The link I put up has it.. just having troubles converting so everyone can see[/QUOTE]

Smash
July 22nd, 2009, 11:27 AM
Ah man!

I would so be in.

But not something the Subaru could handle.

Chris
July 22nd, 2009, 12:02 PM
The link I put up has it.. just having troubles converting so everyone can see

The link requires registration, I'd like to know the details. Like Charlie said, Fall would be great!

white collar redneck dad
July 22nd, 2009, 12:02 PM
Ah man!

I would so be in.

But not something the Subaru could handle.


Smash...I would be driving solo..would u be interested in ride a long / navigator? This trip would be the ultimate true getaway vacation!! Call me let's talk about the possibilities of this trip. Thanks charlie 720.253.8556

Smash
July 22nd, 2009, 12:11 PM
Actually with this length of trip I'd rather have my own rig. Would have to have my dogs and camp. Not possible for me (and not nearly as fun to warrant taking off work) to do as a ride along. Thanks for the offer though!

white collar redneck dad
July 22nd, 2009, 12:18 PM
You are welcome!! Just didn't want u to not go because of your rig.

Chris...how could we set this trip to meet the moab group by Oct 1st? Telluride to moab drive aug 31? Your thoughts? Even if we only did a portion of cont divide trail along with moab?

Start point say gunnison area..allow two days camp to get to telluride...then drive to moab..this way we are only gone 7 days..

te=Smash;50528]Actually with this length of trip I'd rather have my own rig. Would have to have my dogs and camp. Not possible for me (and not nearly as fun to warrant taking off work) to do as a ride along. Thanks for the offer though![/quote]

1freaky1
July 22nd, 2009, 12:28 PM
That does look like a lot of fun!

Chris
July 22nd, 2009, 12:28 PM
Chris...how could we set this trip to meet the moab group by Oct 1st? Telluride to moab drive aug 31? Your thoughts? Even if we only did a portion of cont divide trail along with moab?


I'm not much on planning Charlie, especially when I don't know the start and end points. My style is the less planning the better. ;)

If you're not getting a FR hat from Kerri already I'll get you one for making the connection for us. ;)

DETN8R
July 23rd, 2009, 01:04 AM
I'd be interested in doing this. Maybe not the entire thing but I'd be interested.

4Runninfun
July 23rd, 2009, 04:57 AM
I think this expedition would be an awsome thing to do. I have started some initial research on this. I can't access the link you posted aaron so i'm not sure what all that contains but here are a number of passes i have found that cross the Cont. Divide. This does not include 4x4 trails these are mostly paved roads with a few exceptions.

Rabbit Ears Pass-- near steamboat
Berthoud Pass-- Near winter park
Loveland Pass-- I-70
Hosier Pass-- Near Breckenridge
Freemont Pass-- Near Leadville
Tennessee Pass-- Near Minturn
Hagerman Pass-- Leadville to outside of Aspen
Independence Pass-- Aspen
Cottonwood Pass-- Buena Vista
Tincup Pass-- Buena Vista
Monarch Pass-- Highway 50
Marshall Pass-- south of HWY 50
North Cochetopa Pass-- HWY 114
Wolf Creek Pass-- Pagosa Springs

Obviously I know there are more routes esp in the silverton area. This is a basic list of the paved roads that cross the CD, I will continue to do more researching and see how many more routes I can come up with, and how to interconnect them all, with the least amount of backtracking and the most amount of dirt. STAY TUNED:thunb:

WINKY
July 23rd, 2009, 01:13 PM
id be down for something like this that is when i get money

Chris
July 23rd, 2009, 01:27 PM
Looking forward to some outline of the trails this would include, it's something I'd be very interested in doing. Aaron, can you get something from the link none of us can see?

Smash
July 23rd, 2009, 01:38 PM
Finally found the time to watch that from start to finish.

Holy cow, that sort of trip speaks to my soul.

I hope someday to have the rig, mechanical knowledge, mapping ability and good friends to attempt it.

Funrover
July 23rd, 2009, 04:27 PM
I can send an email with it if someone else want to try and help.

Haku
July 23rd, 2009, 04:56 PM
Speaking of this trip..........I saw this years version driving up towards Breckenridge today. Bunch of Land Rovers with lots of gear and decals on it. Looked like they were having a good time. Must have just gotten off one of the trails near Red Cone and Webster or something. It would definitely be a fun trip.

JH

Chris
July 23rd, 2009, 05:01 PM
You're back Josh? Got Dan's truck home?

Haku
July 23rd, 2009, 05:07 PM
Yep, writing about it in the "recovery" thread as we speak.

JH

4Runninfun
July 23rd, 2009, 05:16 PM
I can send an email with it if someone else want to try and help.

y don't i have an email?;)

Funrover
July 23rd, 2009, 05:17 PM
Speaking of this trip..........I saw this years version driving up towards Breckenridge today. Bunch of Land Rovers with lots of gear and decals on it. Looked like they were having a good time. Must have just gotten off one of the trails near Red Cone and Webster or something. It would definitely be a fun trip.

JH

There is a group called "OffRovering" abunch of high end rich folk. I looked into it but you can't have a rig older than 4 years and etc etc etc.. Plus you pay them $4000. That does not include gas and maint. of rig

Funrover
July 23rd, 2009, 05:18 PM
y don't i have an email?;)

You do now hahahaha

Haku
July 23rd, 2009, 05:27 PM
There is a group called "OffRovering" abunch of high end rich folk. I looked into it but you can't have a rig older than 4 years and etc etc etc.. Plus you pay them $4000. That does not include gas and maint. of rig

Yeah.........this group said "Great Divide 4" on them, so I think it was an official Land Rover deal. I'm sure it wasn't free though, or maybe it was their "preffered customers" or something. Definitely official though, as all the rigs had decals, and there were also some original Range Rovers in the group too, along with Disco's and newer Range Rovers. Can't remember if there were any Defenders, but the oldest rig was a Mark 1 body style Range Rover as I recall. Oh, and there was close to 20 rigs in the group too, all fully loaded with gear.

JH

Funrover
July 23rd, 2009, 05:29 PM
Hmm.. I will have to look more into this. Thanks for the FYI

Chris
July 23rd, 2009, 05:29 PM
Here's the route, needs a bit of proof-reading: :rolleyes:

GENERAL ROUTE OF THE GREAT DIVIDE EXPEDITION


KEY
FR = Forest Road
US = United Stales Highway
WY = Wyoming State Route
CO = Colorado State Route
CR - County Road


Day 1 -. Denver I-25 North to Fort Collins. CO 14 to Larimer CR 69 at Rustic. FR 162 to FR 517 to Bald Mountain four-wheel drive trail. FR 17310 FR 162 to FR 190. Cross Wyoming slale line. BosweJl Creek Road (526) to WY 230, 10 CO 125; back onto WY 230 to Encampment. WY 70 over Ballic tAke Pass to FR 807 to FR 851. Visit Roosevelt and Medicine Bow National Forests. Total: 257 miles/12 hours

D-dY 2 .. FR &51 (Elk Horn Stock driveway) inlo Colorado. FR 551 to FR 477 to FR 50s. Routt CR 550 to Routt CR 129. FR 490 at Columbine over Hahns peak to FR 409. FR 409 to FR 431 to FR 400 near &cdhouse. Routt CR 129 10 US 40 into Steamboat Springs. Visit Medicine 80\0.' and Routt National Forests..
Total: 84 miles/9 hours

Day 3 - Steamboat Springs US 40 to 7th Street. Follow signs to Buffalo Pass (FR 60). Take County Rood through Coalmont CO 14. Jackson CR 28 to Jackson CR 28A to FR 715. FR 106 to FR 730 along the Divide at Poison Ridge to Troublesome Pa..ss then over the Divide above Willow Creek Pass to CO 125. FR 107 to FR 123 (Stillwater Pass). FR 120 to US 34 to US 40 to Granby. Visit Routt and Arapaho National Forests. Total: 123 miles/7 hours

Day 4 - Granby US 4010 Tabernash. Grand CR84 toward Meadow Creek Reservoir. FR 128 to FR 8102 to f'R 128. f'R 149 o\'cr Rollins Pass to FR 176. FR 353 into Central City through town to Nugget. FR 273.210 FR 273.1 to Hamlin Gulch Road. Fall River Road to 1.70 to Georgetown. Guanella Pass Road (FR 118) 10 US 2&5 to Webster. FR 120 to Hill Valley. Visit Arapaho, Roosevelt and Pike National forests. Hall Valley campground. Total: 122 miIesl8 hours

Day 5 - Red Cone Pass (12,800 feet) to FR 2]5. Radical Hill to FR 220 to FR 222 over Georgia Pass. FR 400 to US 28.5. US 285 10 Como. FR 404 over Boreas Pass to Breckenridge. Visit Arapaho and Pike National Forests. Total: 61 miles,(9 hours

Day 6 - Breckenridge CO 9 over Hoosier Pass to Alma. Park CR 10 to FR 43& to FR 419 over Mosquito Pass. Follow roads through Leadville's mining region to
Leadville. Take Lake CR 4 past Turquoise Lake to FR 105 over Hageman Pass to FR 532 to Sellar Meadows. Visit Pike, San Isabel and White Riverr National Forests. Total: 65 miles/ hours

Day 7 - n Sellar Meadows down the Frying Pan Road to Basalt. E.1St Sopris Creek Rood to Snowmass Creek Road to Snowmass. Owl Creek Rood to Aspen. Aspen Mountain Road under sid lifls to FR 123 ollcrTaylor Pass to FR 742. FR 765 to Tincup. FR 2fJ7 to Old Tineup Pass. Tincup Pass to St. Elmo to Mt. Princeton Hot Springs. Visit White River. Gunnison and San Isabel National Foresls. Total: 139 miles/10 hours

Day 8 - Mt. Princeton Hot Springs to SI. Elmo FR 295.2 to FR 299 oller Hancock Pass 10 FR 266. FR S88 over Tomichi Pass to White Pine. White Pine to Sargents on US SO. FR 243 to FR 578. FR &SO to Lone Tree Gulch to CO 114. FR 750 over Cochetopa Pass. Monchcgo Park Road to FR 787. Visit Bureau of Land Management (8L.\I), San Isabel, Rio Grande and Gunnison National Forests. Total: 97 miles/9 hours

Day 9 - FR m to CR N:-.f14 to CR KK14. FR S55 to FR 790-[F to FR 790. FR 788 to CO 14910 Lake City. RLM Road 3300 over Engineer Pass 10 FR 878 to US 550 into Ouray. Visit Gunnison and Uncompahgre National Forests, BL\1. Total: 102 miles/9 hours

DaY 10 - US 550 Ouray to FR 886 (Corkscrew Gulch) to CO 110 to Silverton. US 55O to FR 648 (Black Rear Pass) 10 Telluride. FR 869 (Imogene Pass) to Forest Road 853 to Ouray, Visit Uncompahgre and San Juan National Forests, BLM. Total: 62 miles{7 hours

Day 11 - US 550 Ouray to FR 878 to FR g76 (Poughkeepse Gulch) oller Hurricane Pass to Animas Pass. CO 110 to Howardsllille. FR S20 over Stony Pass 10 CO 14910 Creede. CO 149 to FR 600 10 FR 611 to FR 612 to FR 610. CO [49 to US 160 through Southfork to FR 34S to FR 350. Visit Uncompahgre and Rio Grande National Forests, BLM. Total: 128 miles19 hours

Day 12 - South Fork to Blowout Pass via FR's 345, 350, 359. 332 and 329. Rood 250 to CO 17 to Clama, NM, Return on CO 17 to Antonito. Visit Rjo Grande National Forest. Total: 214 miles/10 hours

Day 13 - Fort Garland, US 160 to CO 150 10 Great Sand Dunes National Monument. Mcdano Pass to FR 40610 CO 69. FR 400 to CO 165 to CO 96 to Pueblo. 1-25 to Denver. Visit Rio Grande and San Isabel National Forests. Total: 2SO miles/9 hours

Funrover
July 23rd, 2009, 05:34 PM
Day 4 I know has one major adjustment. Needles Eye Tunnel collasped. Rollins east and west still connect via Needled Eye Trail now

greenramp
July 23rd, 2009, 05:49 PM
No better way to do a Cont Divide trail route than in a Cont Divide edition Range Rover Classic...hmmmm

Funrover
July 23rd, 2009, 05:52 PM
No better way to do a Cont Divide trail route than in a Cont Divide edition Range Rover Classic...hmmmm

LOL,, I agree and therefore if yours doesn't sell you HAVE TO come now LOL:lol:

Funrover
July 23rd, 2009, 06:23 PM
Day 1 - (looking for links)

Day 2 - (some is missing)
Hahn Peak - http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=169
Seedhouse - http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=170

Day 3 -(some is missing)
Buffalo Pass - http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=167

Day 4 - (some is missing)
Rollins West - http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=134
Rollins East - http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=19
Guanilla Pass - http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=54
Webster Pass - http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=50

Day 5 -
Red Cone - http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=9
Radical Hill - http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=10
Georgia Pass - http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=75
Boreas Pass - http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=74

Day 6 - Some missing
Mosquito Pass - http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=41

Day 7 - Some missing
Taylor Pass - http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=118
Tin cup - http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=120

Day 8 - Missing some
Hancock Pass - http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=245

Day 9 - Missing

Day 10 - Missing some
Black Bear Pass - http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=79
Imogene Pass - http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=80

Day 11 - Missing some
Poughkeepsie Gulch - http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=77
Huricane Pass - http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=260
Stoney Pass - http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=84

Day 12 - Missing

Day 13 - Missing some
Medano Pass - http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=53

Chris
July 23rd, 2009, 06:40 PM
Cleanup up post #30 as much as I could by memory w/o messing it up. Anyone want to finish cleaning it do so by reply w/quote to get it into your post.

;)

1freaky1
July 24th, 2009, 05:50 AM
Charlie and I was talking about this yesterday and pondering the thoughts of breaking it up over a few weekend trips since not a lot of us can take off for 13 days straight, what does everyone think of that idea?

Funrover
July 24th, 2009, 02:44 PM
Charlie and I was talking about this yesterday and pondering the thoughts of breaking it up over a few weekend trips since not a lot of us can take off for 13 days straight, what does everyone think of that idea?


That's what Jon and I were talking about. Doing multiple trips.. Not all at once. I still figure a few stretches will take a few days off work.

DETN8R
July 24th, 2009, 08:41 PM
I'm up for a week long stint in august. Maybe not the divide but something similar.

white collar redneck dad
July 25th, 2009, 10:59 PM
How do u cross rollins pass from granby side since needles eye closed?

Funrover
July 25th, 2009, 11:00 PM
How do u cross rollins pass from granby side if needles eye closed?

There is a connection trail between the 2 (or there was last time I was up there)

white collar redneck dad
July 25th, 2009, 11:08 PM
Let's go explore that bypass to the collapsed tunnel we could also run jenny creek..you thoughts?

.
There is a connection trail between the 2 (or there was last time I was up there)

Funrover
July 25th, 2009, 11:10 PM
Let's go explore that bypass to the collapsed tunnel we could also run jenny creek..you thoughts?

.

I've done the connection trail a couple times now. It is pretty tame for the most part. Adding Jenny would be fun, I like that trail.

white collar redneck dad
July 25th, 2009, 11:15 PM
Great!! Let's make a trip!! Mid august? I have done jenny creek several times..I will lead jenny creek if you lead the needles bypass to grandby. You game?
T


There is a connection trail between the 2 (or there was last time I was up there)

white collar redneck dad
July 25th, 2009, 11:23 PM
I'm thinking august 8th or 9th for jenny creek and needles eye bypass down to grandby..Your thoughts?
I've done the connection trail a couple times now. It is pretty tame for the most part. Adding Jenny would be fun, I like that trail.

Funrover
July 25th, 2009, 11:24 PM
Great!! Let's make a trip!! Mid august? I have done jenny creek several times..I will lead jenny creek if you lead the needles bypass to grandby. You game?
T

Not sure... I am having to cut back right noe..thus I have barely made any trips this summer. The run on this post was more for next summer for me. I just wanted to get it all mapped out and such

Chris
July 26th, 2009, 09:24 AM
Let's go explore that bypass to the collapsed tunnel we could also run jenny creek..you thoughts?

Is this related to the Continental Divide thoughts or a one-day trip Charlie? You may want to post it as it's own run but I'm not sure what you're suggesting...

white collar redneck dad
August 12th, 2009, 01:49 PM
Anyone open to running a segment of continental divide trail on sunday 9/6, 9/13 or 9/27? Aspen viewing time is just over a month away.


Day 1 - (looking for links)

Day 2 - (some is missing)
Hahn Peak - http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=169
Seedhouse - http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=170

Day 3 -(some is missing)
Buffalo Pass - http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=167

Day 4 - (some is missing)
Rollins West - http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=134
Rollins East - http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=19
Guanilla Pass - http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=54
Webster Pass - http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=50

Day 5 -
Red Cone - http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=9
Radical Hill - http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=10
Georgia Pass - http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=75
Boreas Pass - http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=74

Day 6 - Some missing
Mosquito Pass - http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=41

Day 7 - Some missing
Taylor Pass - http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=118
Tin cup - http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=120

Day 8 - Missing some
Hancock Pass - http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=245

Day 9 - Missing

Day 10 - Missing some
Black Bear Pass - http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=79
Imogene Pass - http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=80

Day 11 - Missing some
Poughkeepsie Gulch - http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=77
Huricane Pass - http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=260
Stoney Pass - http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=84

Day 12 - Missing

Day 13 - Missing some
Medano Pass - http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=53

Jackie
February 22nd, 2010, 05:42 PM
I found this thread by searching "Continental Divide" and found it very interesting and informative. My nephew will be visiting Colorado to visit a buddy this summer. He will be bringing a truck, a street-legal dirt bike and motorcylce out here and he and his friend are interested in doing a two-week trip on the divide in June. I'm thinking that's too early for such a trip. Am I wrong? Can any of you offer suggestions I can pass on to the kid? (He's 18 and graduating from high school this year. Driving alone from Alabama to spend the summer out here. Been a scout all his life and is a very strong dirt biker). Good kid. Strong and smart for his age, but all suggestions from the more experienced would be appreciated!

dr350jja
February 22nd, 2010, 10:39 PM
Any trips including the high mountain passes should probably be planned for late July or early August.

SubaCool
February 23rd, 2010, 02:01 AM
I hope someday to have the rig, mechanical knowledge, mapping ability and good friends to attempt it.
What did you get the burb for then? I've thought it was supposed to be an expedition type rig... :erm:

Haven't seen the video yet, but this sounds pretty interesting. We've been thinking about doing something along the lines this summer as well (back country, unpaved, multiple day trip, etc), but scaled to fit the Outback. Will see what happens (life usually happens :p).

Andrew
February 23rd, 2010, 07:16 AM
What did you get the burb for then? I've thought it was supposed to be an expedition type rig... :erm:

Look at the date on the post.... July...2009 ;)

Jackie
February 23rd, 2010, 07:46 AM
Would it be possible to stay on pavement for the most part and then take the dirt bike or motorcycle off the truck for some shorter rides? Or is it just a bad time to be up there? (I'm not really familiar with the whole divide thing).

Thanks!

Andrew
February 23rd, 2010, 08:14 AM
High altitude passes usually have too much snow before mid to late July, depending on the snowfall. This is for the offroad trails. A lot of paved roads will open late May early June. But only because they can get a plow on them.

Funrover
February 23rd, 2010, 02:47 PM
Would it be possible to stay on pavement for the most part and then take the dirt bike or motorcycle off the truck for some shorter rides? Or is it just a bad time to be up there? (I'm not really familiar with the whole divide thing).

Thanks!

Depends when in June and how much snow fall and when it falls. Some of these trails you can do in late June and just map a asphalt/concrete connection between them. The high country is normally snowed in till July. Unfortunately we won't for sure until that time comes around. However what others said here is true, High Elevation passes and June is normally a no go

Smash
February 23rd, 2010, 02:49 PM
I will be watching this.

Probably out for me when it comes to time off and money, but who knows I might win the lottery.

Jackie
February 23rd, 2010, 03:13 PM
Thanks for all the replies everyone. What you're telling me is what I thought from the beginning. Do any of you have a different suggestion I could share with my nephew for a two-week, mid-June trip? I'm thinking Moab, otherwise I can only think of staying at lower elevations here in Colorado and run whatever is open at that time. I know the Boulder area trails will probably to be open and camping and hiking are great there as well.

SubaCool
February 23rd, 2010, 03:26 PM
Look at the date on the post.... July...2009 ;)
OOps, my bad! See what happens when I work nights and only sleep 3hrs? :rolleyes:

Andrew
February 23rd, 2010, 03:27 PM
mid-June in Moab can be hot, so be ready for that. In late May last year it got to 100° one day.

There will be a lot of stuff open in June here in CO. I'm usually camping by then.

Jackie
February 23rd, 2010, 04:35 PM
mid-June in Moab can be hot, so be ready for that. In late May last year it got to 100° one day.

There will be a lot of stuff open in June here in CO. I'm usually camping by then.

Yup - Been there, done that myself. I think we were there in July one year and pretty much hung out in the hotel from 10AM til sundown. His dates aren't set yet, so I'm just throwing out ideas. I'm thinking since he's driving all the way from Alabama to get out here, he may as well see more cool stuff if he can. (Even if the cool stuff is HOT)!

BlueMoonMobile
February 24th, 2010, 02:24 AM
I would love to be a part of a 2010 divide trip/s..I'll be watching this too

DETN8R
May 31st, 2015, 10:50 PM
Wow, I'd hate to bump an extremely old thread but did this ever happen?

Jackie
June 1st, 2015, 07:59 AM
Edited because I was referring to a different cont. Divide run with motorcycles and Big Ed's truck.

The StRanger
June 1st, 2015, 11:49 AM
Feb 2010 ?
But it does sound like a fun run..

Funrover
June 3rd, 2015, 11:54 PM
It has not yet happened. Life happened and this has been planned a lot but not conquered.

DETN8R
June 4th, 2015, 12:12 AM
I'm starting to plan what I hope will be an epic adventure next summer...