How far can I lean/tilt?

[alexb]

So I went and played around at Pole Hill last night and got to a spot on the section labeled "Steep climb" in the Wells book where I was floating/leaning because I had front driver and back passenger tires firmly planted and back passenger in the air and front driver floating/barely touching.

Here is a photo of me coming up that spot. I'm not leaning in this photo. :) I was going down on the right side of the trail.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-DjhwpGQm7CQ/UdLnl1YBZKI/AAAAAAAAZo4/rN6t3igBzto/w913-h685-no/IMG_20130701_194957.jpg

Pictures sure don't seem like they do justice to the uneven terrain. :)

What feels like I'm about to flop over is most likely the tiniest little lean that just feels so unnatural that I'm not sure what to do.

How far over do I have to lean to actually tip? When I go down a steep hill/mogul/etc. and I end up with one wheel in the air and leaning far to one side, how worried should I be?

Usually I get out of my jeep and go look at it from the outside and that gives me some more perspective, but when I've got a wheel in the air and another barely touching, it doesn't feel the safest to hop out. :)

[JFjeld]

I don't know that anyone can tell you specifically how far you can lean over and still be safe. I will say having your Jeep off-camber is not a great feeling, and probably feels worse than it actually is. That said, there are a lot of factors at play, primarily your suspension setup, etc.

Do you disconnect your front swaybar when you wheel? If not, this will allow your axle to flex somewhat independently of the body. This translates to more traction while keeping your body relatively level on uneven terrain. In the pic below (red TJ, with my swaybar disconnected) you see that my wheels are in contact with the ground and obstacle, while the Jeep is relatively level. Had my swaybar still been connected my body would've been at the same angle as the axle, and I probably would've tipped over:
http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/z373/JFjeld/Colorado/2013-04-13_12-23-56_551_zpse6f09553.jpg (http://s1186.photobucket.com/user/JFjeld/media/Colorado/2013-04-13_12-23-56_551_zpse6f09553.jpg.html)

[Java]

pretty dang far, way past where it feels comfortable. Check out Carl (orange Jeep) at about 50 seconds:


http://vimeo.com/67534571

[alexb]

way past where it feels comfortable

This is definitely how I feel every time. :) I feel bad for my passenger because I'd rather be on the high side rather than the low side. :) It feels fine and very difficult to tip from the high side.

[Java]

[QUOTE=alexb;235808] I feel bad for my passengerQUOTE]

whatever.

[Chris]

I can say without reservation that I hate being tippy. Barb & I were up Argentine Pass a couple days ago and got too tippy for me at 25-30° which didn't bother Barb at all. Of course my 4Runner being tippy in no way relates to a Jeep tilt so this comment is worthless! :redface:

[Mr6dwg]

I have a picture of a Grand Cherokee sitting at a 37 degree tilt. But, like Chris said, somewhere in the 30 degree is getting quite tilted. I tried looking for the picture, but am unable to locate it.

[Hypoid]

How far over do I have to lean to actually tip?You can lean until you tip over. :D

I know that is not a definitive answer, but there are too many variables in each build to give a definitive answer...Unless you are one of those engineering types, with a busy mind. :)

I think you are doing well to feel the tires lift. :thumb:

[Rick]

I can say without reservation that I hate being tippy.Me too!!!! That 1st obsacle on Spring Creek always gets my stomach tingling

[xaza]

You can buy an clinometer which will give you a guide. You then just need to strap off truck to prevent from actually being able to tip. A winch works good for this cause you can slowly in a controlled manner let it out a little if needed. Then lift the side up slowly with a forklift until it tries to tip, pull it back to forklift and mark clinometer
http://www.4wheelparts.com/search.aspx?kw=clinometer
However from that point there are many other variables if you have momentum it can tip from a lesser angle, tire slips, vehicle shifts etc. If you add weight to the passenger compartment that will cause it to tip sooner also.

[xaza]

Spring Creek 1st obstacle gave me a pucker moment last year, at about 2:15

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKe2tI5cnSw

[Heather]

Spring Creek 1st obstacle gave me a pucker moment last year, at about 2:15


I puckered just watching the video at 2:15. You totally made it look easy after that, though. That obstacle always induces wind-sucking. Agreed with Mike about how so many factors are in play on any given line.

[Rick]

Spring Creek 1st obstacle gave me a pucker moment last year, at about 2:15That was a close one......

[Talus]

How far over do I have to lean to actually tip?

That's easy- the tipping point is just a function of your center of gravity and inertia! :) Now the hard part is determining where the CG is vs. your inertia and slope...

[Cr33p3r]

I too hate being tippy especially now that the truck sits a foot taller than stock and has more flex in the suspension. When we did Miller rock it felt like we were at 45 degrees in a few places but it was more likely about 25. Perception from inside the vehicle is always greater than outside due to having a narrow view of the surroundings.

[Rob]

I know an FJC can get this tippy before flopping.

[Brad]

I installed one of these:

http://www.amazon.com/Sun-Company-201-F--gage-Inclinometer/dp/B00042K694/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1372817931&sr=8-1&keywords=Clinometer


it just confirmed how big of a wuss I am when leaning. :D

[Jim]

I have two of these - one in the center of the dash lean and one by the glove box for incline/decline:

I think I've been to 25deg on lean. I could see finding a marginal area, set a safety strap in place to arrest a flop and use the winch to pull the jeep to the neutral spot - and record where neutral is. Granted, other factors come into play, but it would give me a baseline.

EDIT: LOL - now I clicked onto your link!!!

http://www.jimwilliamson.net/automobile/2011-10-29--trail-moody-hill/img_3223.jpg

[Jackie]

I HATE the tippy feeling. I'll be watching this thread!!!

[Andrew]

Different trucks can be different - but the terrain and situation can make a lean feel much worse than it really is. I've had my truck to 35° before which didn't feel so good. But then 25° in Moab when you are leaning towards nothing can feel like it's worse than 25°. Some trucks are more top heavy which means your angle is less than other trucks which aren't - so in this case lift actually makes leaning feel worse.

[Rick]

so in this case lift actually makes leaning feel worse.yep

[Chris]

I know an FJC can get this tippy before flopping.

And how tippy wereyou Rob?

[GaryG]

I have this cool app for my phone and I have a mount that keeps it level in the Jeep. I'll let you all know when I fall over what it said ;)

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-4kkCG2k8yec/UdSB6-cq-cI/AAAAAAAAXQU/irRfT8k5idI/w640-h360-no/photo.jpg

[Robert B]

while down at the local bronco junkyard (I know the owner) we were playing on the ramp he has and the guys whose classic broncos tire I was driving onto had his In a "tippy" spot and he got out and tried to tip it over and he got it to have the body sit very very near dead vertical and it would not go over...........mine will go very far before I even get the tippy feeling so it is unique to every truck and the only way to really do it is use a forklift on the side and see when it will go over ........ of course that is with it strapped off so when it does tip it doesn't actually go over

[Brian]

I hate that feeling too! I've been in that situation myself, but this trip to the Rubicon Trail a few years ago happend so fast I didnt have time to do anything but hold on!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scvdFZn1nR4

[ILuvtheMountains]

Wow, that looked terrifying! Good thinking to gas out once your buddies flipped you over, I'm sure that wasn't easy!

[Rob]

And how tippy were you Rob?

I was thiiiis tippy. :D

[xaza]

lol, nice :lmao:

[Rob]

lol, nice

Yeah, it doesn't have enough numbers on it to get an accurate reading. I think it was sitting on "Holy sh_t!"

[glacierpaul]

Yeah, it doesn't have enough numbers on it to get an accurate reading. I think it was sitting on "Holy sh_t!":lmao: funny Rob!!

That was a close call for Carl (orange Jeep), and the others. Doink, great job man!! That looked flawless!

[alexb]

I'll let you all know when I fall over what it said

That will be very helpful. :)

[alexb]

I installed one of these:

http://www.amazon.com/Sun-Company-20...rds=Clinometer


it just confirmed how big of a wuss I am when leaning.

I love this picture from Amazon.

http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/b7/73/8f941363ada07a0c8fcee010.L._SX385_.jpg

[alexb]

And thanks all for the great feedback!

[glacierpaul]

Pretty far:) need to get that clinometer!

[Jim]

From the image itself, it looks to compute out to 26 degrees...

I rotated the original image for the "vertical" trees and post to be near true vertical. I then drew a green line aligned with the bumper. I then made a "horizonal" line by deleting content from the bottom of the pic. Rotating the "green line" to match the horizontal I need a 26 degree rotation for them to match.

[carpenle]

Wow good job Jim!

[alexb]

From the image itself, it looks to compute out to 26 degrees...

That's awesome. Now to get a stick-um inclinometer.

[Funrover]

Some random pics
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c353/Funrover/Off%20road%20Trips/735661_20.jpg (http://s31.photobucket.com/user/Funrover/media/Off%20road%20Trips/735661_20.jpg.html)

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c353/Funrover/Off%20road%20Trips/4-Wheeling016.jpg (http://s31.photobucket.com/user/Funrover/media/Off%20road%20Trips/4-Wheeling016.jpg.html)

Here I am on Eagle rock, Made it just fine and all 4 wheels still on the ground.
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c353/Funrover/Off%20road%20Trips/WAYFARLEAN.jpg (http://s31.photobucket.com/user/Funrover/media/Off%20road%20Trips/WAYFARLEAN.jpg.html)


It varies by rig. Generally the lower Center of gravity you have the more you can lean.

[glacierpaul]

Sick Aaron!!

Jim, very sweet! I did do the calcs on my driveway, it is about 18-21% grade.

[foxtrot]

like everyone else said, it varies vehicle to vehicle. I tipped exactly at this point:

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5186/5748945052_d6f31c4cce.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/58935950@N02/5748945052/)

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2411/5748396593_ab03fee212.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/58935950@N02/5748396593/)

I love the pucker factor lol, excluding in places where a rollover includes death haha

[CS79bronco]

Had you straightened your front wheels 6" before this point you might not have tipped. So many variables involved.

[Cr33p3r]

I found this one that gives a great example of the tippy feeling LOL.

[alexb]

Testing double decker buses in the 30s:

http://i.imgur.com/y7EOXme.jpg

[xaza]

that is crazy! would have never guessed they could lean that far

[flashboiler]

I see a lot of chains on the axle of that bus... Looks like that bus shot is "rigged" pun intended!

[alexb]

I like the difference between measurements of the angle of the ground vs. angle of the bus.

[CS79bronco]

Looks like they were testing flex of suspension and/or flex of the body, not how far the bus would lean before going over. About 10* difference from the platform to top of the bus.

[alexb]

So I spent $13 to invest in the Jeep. I'm all set to go take several pictures at different, measured angles. now. :)

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-9euhJyXlr8s/Uk5PeR2LX7I/AAAAAAAAcZ0/S-dVGUvbAC0/w775-h581-no/IMG_20131003_165053.jpg

[alexb]

So I went and found a hill. Made it just shy of 25 degrees before I stopped. :)

Flat:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-PmQHy7_aLiQ/UlWfr1gQmUI/AAAAAAAAczg/FFCDqiHXR3c/w553-h415-no/IMG_20131007_152431.jpghttps://lh5.googleusercontent.com/oKwxxIRF4GfNsK1NLDArFOUv9EfaF9FUq3rdL3_ScQLn=w553-h415-no

5 degrees
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-90Rjoz7jJGw/UlWfr3voZ4I/AAAAAAAAczg/un4mKcm5j-w/w553-h415-no/IMG_20131007_152629.jpghttps://lh6.googleusercontent.com/Qz3iiKDwOF3QjxzL9LuOMe4B6QQrYBUYWZdGel5VbqBK=w552-h414-no


10 degrees
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-7P3MDzWX5do/UlWfr9E9WLI/AAAAAAAAczg/4043dtjVbyo/w553-h415-no/IMG_20131007_152732.jpghttps://lh6.googleusercontent.com/5H2AqBcIk8dcBCDRdfRiCY9W1Z4-UrPKfNwjQdjM4XMk=w553-h415-no

15 degrees
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-mhfAEKB1uwc/UlWfr4VgEBI/AAAAAAAAczg/PbJhjKICprE/w553-h415-no/IMG_20131007_152848.jpghttps://lh4.googleusercontent.com/hm6WXy00jMwoY7CQkUWrKIt1XW2m0TDPL4FxNfUYFpZH=w553-h415-no

20 degrees
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-U-qQO7DEziI/UlWfrzgUyOI/AAAAAAAAczg/AyHwd6CDwGU/w553-h415-no/IMG_20131007_153023.jpghttps://lh3.googleusercontent.com/h0pPvhZDfZ-xB4nJMw-ohvAwjRmeLS1VPvr6vw4LmX3a=w553-h415-no

[alexb]

Just shy of 25 degrees. At this point, I couldn't extend the seat belt because the Jeep was leaning so far, the seat belt thought we were rolling.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-tA7OVQOhm6c/UlWfr2tVOrI/AAAAAAAAczg/6nZuHPdjrHI/w553-h415-no/IMG_20131007_153204.jpghttps://lh6.googleusercontent.com/9GtyXwMdnq-rvfbcHdOxG_0ONq-4d6-umsOjrJXOvvKw=w553-h415-no


The open door barely cleared the road at this point.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-gWejlldkuvk/UlWfrwA0ueI/AAAAAAAAczg/IEbs0G1n_Hc/w553-h415-no/IMG_20131007_153246.jpg

[GaryG]

So at what point did it feel like you were going over?

[alexb]

So at what point did it feel like you were going over?

The last picture near 25 degrees was my limit. It started feeling really tippy at 15.

[Chris]

Interesting, I'll have to try that myself but know anything close to 25° is too much for me to feel comfortable.

[alexb]

Interesting, I'll have to try that myself but know anything close to 25° is too much for me to feel comfortable.

What surprised me is that each of those pictures is about 1 tire width over from the previous picture. Meaning if I feel tippy, even 1 tire width in the other direction could make a significant difference in the angle.

[JFjeld]

Definitely had the tippy feeling Saturday in the Rock Garden on Spring Creek Trail near Idaho Springs. You can see my driver front tire in the air, and I have a LOT of flex. I wasn't too worried since I knew the rock formation on my passenger side would keep me from flopping completely on the side:

http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/z373/JFjeld/Colorado/Spring_Creek/SC_Rock_Garden_1_zps7c9a9fd0.jpeg (http://s1186.photobucket.com/user/JFjeld/media/Colorado/Spring_Creek/SC_Rock_Garden_1_zps7c9a9fd0.jpeg.html)

http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/z373/JFjeld/Colorado/Spring_Creek/SC_Rock_Garden_2_zpscf79c15b.jpeg (http://s1186.photobucket.com/user/JFjeld/media/Colorado/Spring_Creek/SC_Rock_Garden_2_zpscf79c15b.jpeg.html)

[Crashman]

Interesting, I'll have to try that myself but know anything close to 25° is too much for me to feel comfortable.

i would be interested in your results since I have almost the same rig just a little heavier (rear bumper)

[Jim]

Jason, this comment isn't pointed at you (I assume you weren't winching)

The tree shows what happens when folks don't use a "tree saver" strap when winching. There are two winch line cuts into the tree which may well cut enough of the sap flow to kill the tree.


http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/z373/JFjeld/Colorado/Spring_Creek/SC_Rock_Garden_2_zpscf79c15b.jpeg

[Dutch]

Sometimes you're feeling good and your rear tire drops and you gently lay over causing no damage but getting a great shot of your under carriage.

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z97/DutchVDub/Wheeling/ChinamanGulch071_zps1eaaedb6.jpg

Then there are those times your brake line ruptures suddenly and you go for one hell of a ride that leads to creative uses of hi-lift jacks.

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z97/DutchVDub/Wheeling/004_zps26b55884.jpg

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z97/DutchVDub/Wheeling/008_zpsc8087d88.jpg

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z97/DutchVDub/Wheeling/009_zps9756f5e6.jpg

[The StRanger]

Thing's happen !!!

[Dutch]

Oh yeah, those were both back in 2009 and several rigs ago. I've flopped twice more since then. Once in my neighbor's YJ (dana 60's and 37's, full cage) down at 21 Road in Grand Junction and another time in my YJ (dana 60/14bolt and 40's, full cage) at Pritchett Canyon, Moab on the Rock Pile bypass. That puts me at 3 flops and 1 full on roll over. The flop in my YJ was fairly hard but it didn't do much more than dent up my factory metal half door on the driver's side. When I flopped my neighbor's rig I probably would've barely scratched the paint but it looked like I could drive out of it and the attempt jacked up the side of the hood. Luckily for me he wasn't too upset and he blew out his hub on the front Dana 60 and I was able to make up for the hood damage by fixing the axle.

[Chris]

i would be interested in your results since I have almost the same rig just a little heavier (rear bumper)

Yeah, I'd be interested in your results if you beat me to it Eric! :D