scout build up

[scout man]

Alright, so I think I may have finally consolitated my thoughts on what to do with my scout, and I may be starting to have some money to start the project, but I am looking for some advice as to whether these are good ideas or not, and input from those who have done the project before.

The first thing that needs to happen is a lift. I am thinking I am going to do the SOA with at least 33 inch tires. Although, I am considering trying for 35s right away. To do this I would do a 2 inch body llift, which I am considering anyways due to later things, such as an exo-cage. Whether I need the lift or not, I feel I should do it before the exo so I do not have to redo the work down the road if I decide I need one. However, if I do the soa (about 6 inch lift) with my stock springs I can always swap out lift springs later (2.5 or 4 inch readily available) to clear the 35s. Might be safer than the body lift?? Also on the list in the near future is a good winch bumper and roll cage, although at this point I think the roll cage comes next due to my little problem of not being afraid of things that should scare me. I dont always know when to stop. After I have the lift, roll cage, and good bumpers my next step will be rock guards (that can later be incoorporated into the exo).

Next comes the big build, the exo. As I have mentioned before, I feel that I run a huge risk of rolling any time I go out, mostly because I love the thrill of difficult things and can quickly get myself into trouble. My goal with this is a cage that provides for the least amount of damage to the rig on a gentle roll over. I also do not want it to inhibit easy roof removal, and since I will have the interioir cage already, I do not worry much about the top, since those are somewhat replacable if it is every necessary. So I am thinking something along the lines of the photo below. (I did this in paint, so its rough, and I got lazy and stopped drawing curved pipes, so use your imagination to remove the sharp corners) It will protect the body, however, given the nature of the scout it is very hard to connect the rear corners without dissabling the rear door. for this reason I am going to get creative. I am thinking right behind the front seats I will run a pipe from the exo, to connect to the inner cage (yes, through the body... it all leaks anyways!). Unless of course those of you more experienced than I see this as a bad idea. Not sure whether the inside and outside need to be able to flex seperatelly or not. Also, I will run one more crossmember from exo to exo across the very rear, but once again running through the body to connect the two (wont interfere with doors this way.) I also may or may not include the bar running from behind the door to the top of the windshield. This was an after thought to reinforce things. Mainly connect the cage front to rear to prevent it "hinging" on the sliders, and also to reinforce the windshield bar so as to not crush if I roll on it. But if it is decided it doesnt need to be there or help to have it there, it will go away.

the only other project is a custom truck box for the rear cargo space. One that fills the entire area behind the back seat and up to bed wall level, which will have a large drawer for storage and will allow for a large flat area on top for mounting things (highlift, axe, shovel, gas?, spare tire?, cooler, etc).

If anyone has any suggestions for this list, or input as to the cost of the exo cage or truck box, or is up to the task of fabricating some of this please let me know. It will take a while to complete, but I am hoping to start the SOA very soon here.

[Brody]

I am going to sttay away from the spring over /spring under thing as that is totally a matter of preference. I will make a couple of suggestions, though.

Go with the rock rails first as you will use them as anchor points for your exo cage. Doing the exo first will just mean a lot of extra work trying to tie everything in later. With the rock rails on you have a great foundation already tied into the frame, plus you are protecting the body panels in the meantime. Then you can do the exo in sections: do the cab, then do either the front or back...just get the cab protected first. My cage took about 2+ years to build due to $$ and each stage looked pretty good. Look at my album photos and you can see various parts of the build.

Body Lift: After my exo cage was all built, I wished that I had done a body lift...still do. Now the exo is on, it is simply too much work to do and would actually weaken the exo if it was done. The reason I want a body lift is so that I can raise the gas tank and T-case up another inch or so for better clearance. Now, to raise the T-case, I am going to have to cut my floor and build up the transmission hump to get the same clearance. There is no way to raise the tank with the exception of remounting it cross ways in the frame or cutting out the bed. Just things to think about. There are drawbacks to body lifts, but I have run body lifts that I built myself, hockey puck lifts and aftermarket body lifts in a number of rigs with no problems.

As far as tire size..I know of very few 4 wheelers who have not gone to bigger tires...and bigger tires than what they thought were big tires right after they bought them and ran them for awhile. This is one of the reasons you see so many big tires for sale on E Bay and craigslist..Soooooooo...if you are even thinking about 35" tires, just buy the 35" tires and make them work. If you get the 33s and have comtemplated the 35s..face it...you are probably going to get the 35s at some point soon and you might as well do it now instead of taking a beating on the 33s when you resell them. There are screaming deals on used 35s out there simply because the guys with the 'big' 35s decided to go with 37s...I don't think anyone here is going to disagree with me here...I have done this more often than I want to admit. I started with 31s on my heap and 5 years later am running 38s...this was the same progression I just mentioned, too, BTW...

Suggestions on the drawn in exo: Add another top bar over the cab and a cross brace (X) to connect the two. Eliminate the point on the front bumper and base the design change on the size of a winch plate in the center, You will probably end up adding a winch down the road.

There are quite a few folks on the site now with fab skills and we can get you set up with a cage, rails, bumpers and inside storage. I don't have a bender, for instance, but can do pretty much everthing else...so can any of the other fab guys and there are at least 3 with tubing benders and experience bending. Any (or all, probably) of us would be happy to work with you on design and answering questions, so ask away.

[scout man]

wow, thanks for the great response Brody. Yea, I intend to do the rock rails first... or at the same time as the cage if I have the money to keep going, but the rails will probably come first. And you confirmed my thinking that before I go with any of the cage/rock rail fabiing I might as well throw in a body lift, just so I don't regret it later. The bumper I have been looking at kind of resembles what I have drawn in. It is a good solid bumper with a winch plate but it also has the stinger/hoop on it, which I am a fan of, and I figuring that connecting the exo to that would strengthen the hoop as well. I plan on the winch after the internal roll cage though because with the winch I will be even more likelly to end up in a position I have no business being in without a cage.
I do like the idea of another cross bar, however I am not totally sold on this because I want to be able to take the roof off by myself during the summer, and I will already have extensive top protection from my interal cage, which I will have tied into the frame. Is this something I just need to except that I need this cross bar?

[scout man]

ah, you were refering to the point on the actual bumper... yea that was just my drawing. I intend to purchase a bumper anyways and it will definitely be set up for a winch.

[Brody]

You are welcome. I am happy to give any advice as the rig I am driving now is probably the 10th or 11th 4x I have built and I learned a few things along the way.

You mentioned both an internal and external roll cage?? You really need only one or the other and my preference is for the external simply because you are not going to do much, if any, body panel damage, thus paying for the cage really quickly in the first roll over.

The reason for the cross bracing is merely a matter of structural support. If you look at almost roll cage, be it internal or external, you will see that there are supports in an 'X' between the corners of the cage. If you roll, especially sideways, you cage takes all the initial impact on one side. If there isn't some form of cross bracing, the whole cage will rack over to the opposite side. You will probably walk away unharmed, but you will be hell to pay to try to straighten out your cage after this. There shouldn't be any problem with designing a cage that will work with the necessary bracing and still allow you to take your top off. And I am a firm believer in gusseting any corners of the cage. I have seen too many cages that were fairly nicely designed, but not gusseted, get totally racked and essentially ruined in a roll over.

You could have a standard cage that is fully welded or have a cage that allows you to remove the back or upper half to let you do the same thing. There are many cage/tube/fab fittings that are made to accomadate just these things on the market.

Poly Performance, Blue Torch Fabrication and Rock Logic, just to name a few, all have pictures of the many tabs, etc. used in cages and chassis design. Just look in their 'builder parts' categories and you will probably get some new ideas as to what you want.

I actually designed my exo with a hump on the two cross bars over the cab to allow me to easily roll it back to rubber side down.

I should have mentioned this in regard to body lifts. This is another spring under/ spring over, big tire/ small tire, long vs short wheelbase can of worms. Everyone will have an opinion on this. What I would base by my decision on (and I was using my Yota as an example) is what is hanging down and will I be able to move it up if I do a body lift without jacking up pinion/driveshaft angles, etc. They are a PITA...no doubt about it. You are going to be dealing with bolts that haven't been moved for years and they will probably need to be cut or torched off. Do I need new body mounts? This is a biggie and you better do it before the exo...I am speaking from experience here...Will a 1" body lift do what I want or do I need to go to 2"? Another question as body mounts have drawbacks, the biggest two being that the higher you go with the body mount, the more you body is going to want to shift around and the second is that you raise the COG. If you are going to run 35" and stay spring under, then you might find that the 2" body lift is the way to go and that you don't have a lot of choices.

Happy to help any way I can

[scout man]

What I has in mind peter was more of a hybrid between the two. I would start with your basic roll cage as soon as I can afford it for my basic safety, a place a mount seatbelts, and something to throw a bikini top on. Then down the road when I can afford it I would start what originated as a bare-bones exo. It would end up as a unique blend between the two where they will connect and become all exo when I am topless, yet when the roof is on just the bottom would be exo and the top would be unprotected, yet I would still be safe. So the whole thing would be tied together as one solid cage, just part of it ends up inside sometimes. This is why I was avoiding crossing over the top, because I don't need two cages there and I will already have one in place protecting me. The exo in this case is for vehicle safety, not my own. Hope this makes sense, I am typing it on my phone from the back of a semi by frisco!

[Brody]

I thought a little about this and here is another suggestion:

If you did the rock rails by using square or rectangular stock (cheaper, just as strong) you could do the back cage as an easy bolt on/bolt off simply where the cage would attach to the flat part of the rails and bumper. It would be a little weaker simply because of the bolts, but there some really hard core bolts out there, better than grade 8. I think that they are called 9/11 or 911 bolts, which would eliminate some of the weakness.

Unless you already have an internal cage, I really would suggest going with one or the other if for nothing more than the weight savings. You aren't starting out with a light vehicle to begin with. I like your idea, though, and with the weldable tubing clamps out there, it should be fairly easy to accomplish. You could do a couple of bulkhead type fittings that would connect the two cages and have it be a bolt on/through type arrangement. Tricky to do, but not impossible. You would only need to do this in 2-4 spots to have it be strong. And you do also do a 2 piece 'slip joint' fitting to get them through the body panels if necessary and not lose too much strength.

Another thought on the exo as far as design goes, try to run down every picture of exo'd Scouts you can find and get a better idea of what looks good (and functional). I spent a lot of time looking at exos on Yotas before I finally came up with what I wanted on mine.

[Patrolman]

Ditto with Brody regarding the rock rails. They are a great platform for the exo cage to build from. Also, as he said, any body lift you plan to do before the exo, now is the time. I would likely "build" it up a bit before you decide how you want the cage.

If you decide to do any suspension lift, which I presume you will, you will certainly want to look into a frame brace. It is helpful. Also, make sure your steering is in order because it can quickly start to show problems with the suspension and larger tires. Suspension lifts are pricey for Scouts, so I would certainly recommend a SOA. Just personal opinion. Longer shackles are easy to do though so long as your aren't doing the reversal up front.

[Brody]

Thanks, Jeff.

Every time you say 'Ditto with Brody', it gives me a perk! No kidding...you have such a good and solid knowledge base...and better than mine. Thats why I usually tell folks that your input should supersede mine as far as suggestions go.

I wish Bear would not be too busy to do the same. His knowledge base is also huge...

What the hey...we actually have a lot of very knowledgeable folks (from a 4x standpoint...no slight on anything else, but we are talking 4x here) and all of the input is appreciated....a lot..

Always happy when you input on build ups or mechanical questions!

[Patrolman]

Yep, you give lots of good advice too! I have put off my exo-cage until I get my rails built. One logical step at a time!

[scout man]

So, after talking with Josh about this thread, I think I am not communicating myself clearly. Here is an example about the sort of thing I am talking about. http://4wheeldrive.about.com/library...sbattlebus.htm Note that he has the typical roll cage on the cab, and and exo on everything except the cab. They are tied together to make one solid frame, which also creates much more cross bracing and strength. My modification to this would simply be to lower the tie-in point from where he has it and lower it into body level a bit (with some cutting and fabing) so that the roof will still fit over this support. There will be no redundancy in cages because there are no places where the inner cage and the exo overlap. It sounds like the confusion coming into place in my drawing is the pipe running over the door to the windshield. This is simply there because I wanted to not crush the windshield on a roll over (I am kind of fond of having it there). I intend to have the vertical hoop around the outside of the windshield for that protection (as well as a convenient light mounting point) but that is the ONLY exo that is above hood level on the thing. It is not actually a complete Exo.

So, I like the ideas of the cage on the link I just posted except I would make these changes...
1. tone it down a bit... seems like a bit of over kill to me and starting to look a bit gaudy
2. The pipes need to be closer to the body than that, they sit way to far off
3. I am looking for more rounded lines, he has a lot of sharp edges.
4. I want this idea, but I have to be able to get the top on...

So basically, I am stealing a lot of his ideas, and merging my drawing with his actual cage. Is this making any better sense to anybody?? I know its a difficult concept to explain.

and I forgot to add that I like his way of bracing the winshield hoop. I dont like the looks of it, but it makes a lot more sense than the over-the-door support like I had drawn in.

[Brody]

I'll look in the AM. Thanks for the links. You might have to post in all capitals for me as I am sometimes hard of thinking, but it gets there eventually...

LaDawn usually just shouts loudly...

[scout man]

haha, dont mind me, I can barely keep my eyes open and I am trying to make sense... its a recipe for dissaster

[scoutfam]

Alright, so I think I may have finally consolitated my thoughts on what to do with my scout, and I may be starting to have some money to start the project, but I am looking for some advice as to whether these are good ideas or not, and input from those who have done the project before.

The first thing that needs to happen is a lift. I am thinking I am going to do the SOA with at least 33 inch tires. Although, I am considering trying for 35s right away. To do this I would do a 2 inch body llift, which I am considering anyways due to later things, such as an exo-cage. Whether I need the lift or not, I feel I should do it before the exo so I do not have to redo the work down the road if I decide I need one. However, if I do the soa (about 6 inch lift) with my stock springs I can always swap out lift springs later (2.5 or 4 inch readily available) to clear the 35s. Might be safer than the body lift?? Also on the list in the near future is a good winch bumper and roll cage, although at this point I think the roll cage comes next due to my little problem of not being afraid of things that should scare me. I dont always know when to stop. After I have the lift, roll cage, and good bumpers my next step will be rock guards (that can later be incoorporated into the exo).

Next comes the big build, the exo. As I have mentioned before, I feel that I run a huge risk of rolling any time I go out, mostly because I love the thrill of difficult things and can quickly get myself into trouble. My goal with this is a cage that provides for the least amount of damage to the rig on a gentle roll over. I also do not want it to inhibit easy roof removal, and since I will have the interioir cage already, I do not worry much about the top, since those are somewhat replacable if it is every necessary. So I am thinking something along the lines of the photo below. (I did this in paint, so its rough, and I got lazy and stopped drawing curved pipes, so use your imagination to remove the sharp corners) It will protect the body, however, given the nature of the scout it is very hard to connect the rear corners without dissabling the rear door. for this reason I am going to get creative. I am thinking right behind the front seats I will run a pipe from the exo, to connect to the inner cage (yes, through the body... it all leaks anyways!). Unless of course those of you more experienced than I see this as a bad idea. Not sure whether the inside and outside need to be able to flex seperatelly or not. Also, I will run one more crossmember from exo to exo across the very rear, but once again running through the body to connect the two (wont interfere with doors this way.) I also may or may not include the bar running from behind the door to the top of the windshield. This was an after thought to reinforce things. Mainly connect the cage front to rear to prevent it "hinging" on the sliders, and also to reinforce the windshield bar so as to not crush if I roll on it. But if it is decided it doesnt need to be there or help to have it there, it will go away.

the only other project is a custom truck box for the rear cargo space. One that fills the entire area behind the back seat and up to bed wall level, which will have a large drawer for storage and will allow for a large flat area on top for mounting things (highlift, axe, shovel, gas?, spare tire?, cooler, etc).

If anyone has any suggestions for this list, or input as to the cost of the exo cage or truck box, or is up to the task of fabricating some of this please let me know. It will take a while to complete, but I am hoping to start the SOA very soon here.

All you gotta do is call me and we will start when ever your ready. The exo can be built in place and the lift is up to you when ever your ready.

[scout man]

It will be pretty soon here. Finally have some money ready, now I just need to find the weekend.

[Brody]

Got it! Good ideas and the cage looks good. I am not one to think too much tubing look gaudy...just look at my rig..

The only thing that looks a bit off is the distance of the roll cage off the front end..everything else looks pretty tight to me. My cage sits about 1/2 -3/4" off of my bodywork in most places and follows the front a little tighter. It looks as though he essentially followed the body lines, not that you have a lot of options, so you are going to get a somewhat square cage no matter what.

Looking forward to the finished results.

[Patrolman]

I guess my comment would still be the same as before, being that you can't add a body lift later since the body won't sit within the cage. Of course if you added a body lift now, then that allows you to run larger tires. Plus body lifts are cheap/easy. If there is ever any thought that you might want one, now is the time.

Only other "comment" is that you are sort of getting the worst of both worlds. You are losing outside space when wheeling, and you are losing inside storage space with the internal cage. Those are the general downfalls of each. Of course each also has lots of up sides depending on how you look at it.

[scout man]

yea, the body lift is definitely going to happen before a cage or anything, and probably with the initial lift. I was probably more curious if any one would try to talk me out of it, since some people recommend not doing it, although everyone here seems to think they are great. Although one question, which some of you scout guys might be able to answer.. I hear with the body lift the steering column is still ok, and I beleive the automatic shifter is cable driven, but what about the t-case shifter? Is that going to need any modification? And is there anything else anyone knows of that I am not thinking about that may become an issue with the body lift??

[Brody]

You can get shift lever extensions at just about any major truck stop to raise the height of any floor shifters. You radiator shroud will have to be altered or you radiator raised up a bit. Just watch for anything that is attached to the body that doesn't look like it has 2" or so of slack in it.

Wouldn't say everyone is fond of body lifts here. There are just very good reasons to use them in certain situations. Besides which, they are a cheap alternative to expensive suspension lifts. I still wish I had done even a 1" lift on mine for clearance issues underneath...

[Patrolman]

On the Scouts, all you really have to do is make radiator mounts to lower it to match the engine. The steering column apparently has no need for alteration. The 727 trans is in fact a cable shifter, so it is attached to the body and has lots of room for play. The t-case has enough room in the body to fit the lift with no problem. Mine has the 2" lift and I was surprised at how easy it was. I didn't do it, but my buddy who I bought the Scout from did. He didn't even have to extend the fuel filler tube. You are welcome to take a peek at mine before you do yours. Also a great time to replace the rubber bushings with poly. I helped my buddy do that before he did the body lift. Again, easy if you know the tricks.