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Thread: Grand Cherokee Steering ZJ 4.0 vs 5.2

  1. May 19th, 2017 #21
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    Default Re: Grand Cherokee Steering ZJ 4.0 vs 5.2



    dieseldoc previously posted:
    "X2 on the set up not being your issue.

    I chased death wobble for 2 months....it was the steering box had worn and got loose.
    So you have a leak in the box, there is your dead spot.

    Rebuild or new should fix the issue.
    The steering set you have is a good set and beefy!"

    I will give that a shot. I have my jeep up on stands with the entire front axle assembly out, and the transfer case out, and a NP231 torn apart to rebuild it. I will probably wait a little while on tearing anything else apart. I need to start putting stuff back together.
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  2. May 19th, 2017 #22
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    Default Re: Grand Cherokee Steering ZJ 4.0 vs 5.2



    Danimal previously posted:
    "I agree with getting rid of the heims, and I was planning a WJ brake swap anyway...

    I had a couple hours on Monday after work so I completely removed the front axle including the steering getting it ready for the new axle that should be arriving next week. I wanted to pull everything apart and paint it before I reassemble it."

    Danimal previously posted:
    "Welp, I guess they do make everything... $20 each is a little steep."

    This is (almost) a contradiction. You will pay to swap and adapt the knuckles for bigger brakes, but "never mind" the crossover steering? Yes, you can keep the "Inverted Y" steering, even as a half-step. After the cost of swapping and adapting WJ knuckles, the cost for an OTK flip is outweighed by the benefits and potential service life of the related wear components.
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  3. May 20th, 2017 #23
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    Default Re: Grand Cherokee Steering ZJ 4.0 vs 5.2



    Hypoid previously posted:
    "This is (almost) a contradiction. You will pay to swap and adapt the knuckles for bigger brakes, but "never mind" the crossover steering? Yes, you can keep the "Inverted Y" steering, even as a half-step. After the cost of swapping and adapting WJ knuckles, the cost for an OTK flip is outweighed by the benefits and potential service life of the related wear components."

    Long Story:
    I know I have been bouncing back and forth. Basically I wanted to rebuild my dana 30 and put WJ knuckles with bigger brakes on it. I did not want to keep the steering that I had, because the WJ steering has better options. But then I found out that the bearing slipped on the OX locker, and destroyed it. That meant that the rebuild was going to be a lot more than anticipated, so I had to cut some costs. The complication comes from the 4.56 gears that I need. Building one is not cheap, I was planning on just doing bearing and seals, now I needed a new carrier, gears, locker, bearings and seals and I was trying to figure out what the best build combination would be, and so the WJ knuckles were sidelined and the steering will probably have to stay for a while.

    I may have found a complete Dana 30 with 4.56 gears that I am going to pick up today. It has stock knuckles on it so I could get different steering, but I think that I will just transfer over my steering that I have with the drilled out knuckles and keep it the way it is for while and try to tighten everything up.

    So it was one of those take it apart to fix one thing, find 20 other things wrong, and had to piece together a solution that I can afford. Tax refund only goes so far.
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  4. May 20th, 2017 #24
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    Default Re: Grand Cherokee Steering ZJ 4.0 vs 5.2



    OK, now I get it.



    Danimal previously posted:
    "So it was one of those take it apart to fix one thing, find 20 other things wrong, and had to piece together a solution that I can afford. Tax refund only goes so far."

    The WJ knuckle swap will easily gobble up a tax refund. I'm glad you found a suitable replacement axle.
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  5. May 24th, 2017 #25
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    Default Re: Grand Cherokee Steering ZJ 4.0 vs 5.2



    Hypoid previously posted:
    "OK, now I get it.



    The WJ knuckle swap will easily gobble up a tax refund. I'm glad you found a suitable replacement axle."

    Quick question for you: (probably a future project, but while we are here)

    I am looking at the WJ swap parts list, and they have ZJ hubs installed. But then a spacer is required to have the right shaft length. Then they need to re-drill the brake rotors to fit the 5x4.5. Is there a difference between the ZJ and WJ hubs that would work better? I am thinking using WJ knuckles, WJ hubs, spacer(if needed), WJ brake calipers and rotors, XJ axles and a 5x5 to 5x4.5 adapter spacers that I need anyway to keep the tires from rubbing. That way I do not need custom drilled rotors. The only thing that I can figure is the axles are different diameters at the splines for WJ? I think that the spline count is the same based on google searches? Maybe the hub dimensions changed and they will not fit even with the spacer? I cannot find any info on the hub sizes. I might just need to run into autozone and have them pull both and take some measurements.
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  6. May 24th, 2017 #26
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    Default Re: Grand Cherokee Steering ZJ 4.0 vs 5.2



    JKS sells a bunch of WJ swap stuff, I'd bet they would know. I think the biggest reason not to use em would be the bolt pattern, but if that's not an issue for you....
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  7. May 25th, 2017 #27
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    Default Re: Grand Cherokee Steering ZJ 4.0 vs 5.2



    Doing the homework for swapping WJ knuckles onto an XJ axle, I have not looked in-depth at the parts' interchange with the ZJ axles. I was hoping to learn of some combination of parts to eliminate the need for the hub spacer, but, I'm thinking not.

    Danimal previously posted:
    "But then a spacer is required to have the right shaft length."

    In the XJ world, the spacer is required to move the axle shaft U-Joint in line with the ball joint pivot point. Having the U-Joints and ball joints working in different planes puts un-Godly stress on the U-Joints. If you have deep pockets, you could ask the nice people at RCV to make custom shafts to fit the WJ outer stub shaft on XJ inner shafts, which "should" keep these pivot points aligned without the hub spacer.

    Past that, the choice of unit bearing will keep the brake rotors aligned with the brake calipers and brackets.

    I have not looked into dual pattern rotors for the front. It should be easy enough to drill the 4-1/2" lug pattern on the WJ rotors since XJ and WJ rotors are hub-centric.
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  8. May 25th, 2017 #28
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    Default Re: Grand Cherokee Steering ZJ 4.0 vs 5.2



    Hypoid previously posted:
    "Doing the homework for swapping WJ knuckles onto an XJ axle, I have not looked in-depth at the parts' interchange with the ZJ axles. I was hoping to learn of some combination of parts to eliminate the need for the hub spacer, but, I'm thinking not.

    In the XJ world, the spacer is required to move the axle shaft U-Joint in line with the ball joint pivot point. Having the U-Joints and ball joints working in different planes puts un-Godly stress on the U-Joints. If you have deep pockets, you could ask the nice people at RCV to make custom shafts to fit the WJ outer stub shaft on XJ inner shafts, which "should" keep these pivot points aligned without the hub spacer.

    Past that, the choice of unit bearing will keep the brake rotors aligned with the brake calipers and brackets.

    I have not looked into dual pattern rotors for the front. It should be easy enough to drill the 4-1/2" lug pattern on the WJ rotors since XJ and WJ rotors are hub-centric."

    I just drilled mine since I had access to a mill, though I've read that some ford rotors fit with the correct bolt pattern. I think crown vic and explorer sport track, don't quote me on that though. Regarding the spacer, it's really not a big deal.
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  9. May 25th, 2017 #29
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    Default Re: Grand Cherokee Steering ZJ 4.0 vs 5.2



    GPP33 previously posted:
    "I just drilled mine since I had access to a mill, though I've read that some ford rotors fit with the correct bolt pattern. I think crown vic and explorer sport track, don't quote me on that though. Regarding the spacer, it's really not a big deal."

    I have read different things about using Ford rotors. Some who say "I did this" had to open up the center, others also stacked washers somewhere or another to get correct alignment.

    Drilling a new rotor is child's play if you have an old Unit Bearing for a template. I have a few extras at this moment.

    For the record, I will be using the spacer to get the U-Joints aligned with the Ball Joint axis. What is "not a big deal" to me might be a big deal for a high school kid who got a mig welder for Christmas.
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  10. May 25th, 2017 #30
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    Default Re: Grand Cherokee Steering ZJ 4.0 vs 5.2



    Hypoid previously posted:
    "I have read different things about using Ford rotors. Some who say "I did this" had to open up the center, others also stacked washers somewhere or another to get correct alignment.

    Drilling a new rotor is child's play if you have an old Unit Bearing for a template. I have a few extras at this moment.

    For the record, I will be using the spacer to get the U-Joints aligned with the Ball Joint axis. What is "not a big deal" to me might be a big deal for a high school kid who got a mig welder for Christmas."

    If you can't weld you're probably not putting this together yourself, or at least you shouldn't be. The welds you need to put down for the track bar mount are far more critical than the welds that hold the spacer in place.
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  11. May 26th, 2017 #31
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    Default Re: Grand Cherokee Steering ZJ 4.0 vs 5.2



    All about the right heat and feed here.
    To much heat and things will move in bad ways!
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  12. May 26th, 2017 #32
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    Default Re: Grand Cherokee Steering ZJ 4.0 vs 5.2



    GPP33 previously posted:
    "I just drilled mine since I had access to a mill, though I've read that some ford rotors fit with the correct bolt pattern. I think crown vic and explorer sport track, don't quote me on that though. Regarding the spacer, it's really not a big deal."

    I have a CNC machine that could make quick work of it, but it is more a matter of needing to custom CNC my brake rotors that makes me look at alternatives. Just building a setup and zeroing at the hub center hole will take a couple hours, then the cam or hand programming...

    It strikes me as strange that the C dimensions are the same, the knuckle dimensions are almost the same, the hub bolt pattern is the same, the axle spline count is the same, but no one just uses the WJ hub with the WJ knuckle, even though they would have to line up at the same rotational axis without the spacer. It must just be a problem with the length of the splined end shaft that positions the shaft in the hub. I wonder if you bought a WJ alloy shaft end and pressed it onto a ZJ axle with a heavy duty U-joint if you could use all WJ parts and have everything line up? I know the axle main shaft is longer, but as long as the hub side shaft end took the same U-joints for the aftermarket kits that would probably be a better way to go.

    I just want to be able to walk into whatever parts store and grab replacement parts when I need them. Also once the spacer is put on there, it supports the full torque load of the hub because it no longer seats into the knuckle. So whatever the shear strength the bolts have, plus the strength of the welds on a cast part are all that keeps thing together.
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  13. May 26th, 2017 #33
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    Default Re: Grand Cherokee Steering ZJ 4.0 vs 5.2



    Danimal previously posted:
    "I wonder if you bought a WJ alloy shaft end and pressed it onto a ZJ axle with a heavy duty U-joint if you could use all WJ parts and have everything line up?"

    I don't know of any stub shaft for a WJ that will accept a U-Joint. If you can bring one to market, you just might sell a few.
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  14. May 26th, 2017 #34
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    Default Re: Grand Cherokee Steering ZJ 4.0 vs 5.2



    Hypoid previously posted:
    "I don't know of any stub shaft for a WJ that will accept a U-Joint. If you can bring one to market, you just might sell a few."

    Hmmm, I thought that they had alloy shafts just like the ZJ XJ. If not, then it is not worth the trouble. That is probably why we are where we are with the spacer.
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  15. May 26th, 2017 #35
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    Default Re: Grand Cherokee Steering ZJ 4.0 vs 5.2



    WJ went to a CV joint. You could get one custom made I'm sure. Again, the spacer is just too easy.
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  16. May 26th, 2017 #36
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    Default Re: Grand Cherokee Steering ZJ 4.0 vs 5.2



    Danimal previously posted:
    "I have a CNC machine that could make quick work of it, but it is more a matter of needing to custom CNC my brake rotors that makes me look at alternatives. Just building a setup and zeroing at the hub center hole will take a couple hours, then the cam or hand programming...

    It strikes me as strange that the C dimensions are the same, the knuckle dimensions are almost the same, the hub bolt pattern is the same, the axle spline count is the same, but no one just uses the WJ hub with the WJ knuckle, even though they would have to line up at the same rotational axis without the spacer. It must just be a problem with the length of the splined end shaft that positions the shaft in the hub. I wonder if you bought a WJ alloy shaft end and pressed it onto a ZJ axle with a heavy duty U-joint if you could use all WJ parts and have everything line up? I know the axle main shaft is longer, but as long as the hub side shaft end took the same U-joints for the aftermarket kits that would probably be a better way to go.

    I just want to be able to walk into whatever parts store and grab replacement parts when I need them. Also once the spacer is put on there, it supports the full torque load of the hub because it no longer seats into the knuckle. So whatever the shear strength the bolts have, plus the strength of the welds on a cast part are all that keeps thing together."

    I did mine on a manual with DRO. Used cad to lay out the X-Y movements located the center hole with the little wobbly edge finder thingamabobber and off I went.

    As as for the spacer it doesn't support any torque, just the verticle load of the vehicle. Between the spring absorbing impact loads and the clamp force from the hub bolts preventing slip I'd bet you don't even need to weld it. I wouldn't suggest running without welding it but if everything stays tight and you don't make a habit out of jumping/hitting jounce bumpers it'll probably stay put.

    eta: a couple numbers to back up my previous statement...12mm 10.9 bolt torqued to 75 lbft will generate in the neighborhood of 13,000 lbs of clamp force x 3 = almost 40,000 pounds of clamp force. Figure on the low side steel on steel has a coefficient of friction of 0.5 and you need to put 20,000 on that wheel before the spacer will slip. The weld isn't really necessary if everything is tight.
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  17. May 31st, 2017 #37
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    Default Re: Grand Cherokee Steering ZJ 4.0 vs 5.2



    GPP33 previously posted:
    "I did mine on a manual with DRO. Used cad to lay out the X-Y movements located the center hole with the little wobbly edge finder thingamabobber and off I went.

    As as for the spacer it doesn't support any torque, just the verticle load of the vehicle. Between the spring absorbing impact loads and the clamp force from the hub bolts preventing slip I'd bet you don't even need to weld it. I wouldn't suggest running without welding it but if everything stays tight and you don't make a habit out of jumping/hitting jounce bumpers it'll probably stay put.

    eta: a couple numbers to back up my previous statement...12mm 10.9 bolt torqued to 75 lbft will generate in the neighborhood of 13,000 lbs of clamp force x 3 = almost 40,000 pounds of clamp force. Figure on the low side steel on steel has a coefficient of friction of 0.5 and you need to put 20,000 on that wheel before the spacer will slip. The weld isn't really necessary if everything is tight."

    200 HP is 110,000 ft lbs /second of torque. If you were heavy on one front axle with the wheels turned sharply it is very possible to massively exceed 40,000 of clamp force. I still think that the sheer force of the three hub bolts would be higher provided there is no bouncing or other impulses, but you might have shifting and some deformation around the bolt holes that would get worse with time. I would definitely weld it if I were doing it.
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  18. June 1st, 2017 #38
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    Default Re: Grand Cherokee Steering ZJ 4.0 vs 5.2



    Totally agree you should weld it, just saying it's only added insurance. And it keeps it in place while you bolt everything up.

    As for the torque, the only torque transferred to the unitbearing mount is the amount or torque required to turn the bearing. The remainder goes right through to the hub.
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  19. June 2nd, 2017 #39
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    Default Re: Grand Cherokee Steering ZJ 4.0 vs 5.2



    Small welds if you truely want to weld it.
    Don't think full welding is needed
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